TexasCHLforum.com

Teamless wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:29 pmIf it is the the Bill of Rights - let the chips fall where they may - without exceptions or restrictions
If Darwin wins (or others lose as some are just idiots)

Might I suggest one small change in your philosophy? If, instead of looking for it in the Bill of Rights, you look at the delineated powers. If it is not listed that as something they can regulate, let the chips fall where they may.

chasfm11 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:20 am

srothstein wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:02 pmI can see this setting up some interesting problems. If I have a license, I only need to look for 2 signs, but they do not apply to someone carrying without a license. And if someone only posts 30.08, I can do what I want there.

How many signs can be required before we get successful push back from the business community and what will be the end result of that pushback? Texas has been a very business friendly and property owner rights friendly state for much longer than it has been a second amendment friendly citizen carrying state. Our penal code section on unlawfully carrying can be traced back to the reconstruction era.

No signs are required. In fact, no signs are preferred. In Pennsylvania, no signs are allowed. In Texas, you, as a business owner, get to decide which portions of your customer base you want to reject and just need to tell them through visible signs. If you end up covering the front of your store with them, it is on you. For me, the 06,07,08 signs seem to make more sense than the TABC "Unlicensed carry" sign which is also required. If store owners push back, let's tell TABC that they need to be out of the gun business and to stick with alcohol.

While I agree that TABC should have no say in firearms allowed in a business at all and no law should reference what is going on at any location in reference to whether guns are allowed or not, I disagree on the no signs concept. As a business or property owner, I have the full right to say what I allow on my property, whether I base that decision on guns or clothing (no "gang" attire for example), on race, religion or any other "protected" class (I disagree with our government's authority or propriety in stopping me from discriminating on my property), or on something stupid such as no left handed red heads. If I want to exclude a portion of my potential customer base, I should have that right and ability. If I choose the wrong group to exclude, I end up going out of business, which is just and deserved IMO.

But, the best way to communicate those desires is by posting a sign. Texas law does not require anyone to post these criminal trespass signs at any business. That is always the option of the owner. But we have a unique advantage in Texas in that the law is specifying specific signs to be posted if you want to exclude certain groups from your business. This prevents businesses from posting small inconspicuous generic signs that could be misinterpreted, like a pistol in a red circle with a slash, and being able to file criminal trespass charges against gun owners. This is a good thing, IMO.

So, maybe I worded my questions wrong when I said required. My question can be restated as how many of these types of signs can we specify that must be posted if a business owner wants to ban people from carrying a gun in a store before the business community starts pushing back and successfully gets the law changed to allowing those nondescript and inconspicuous signs?

ELB wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:23 pmThere's a new sign! The 30.08 sign! for the "Unlicensed Holder" trespass section. Sign parallels language and lettering size requirements for 30.06/30.07 signs except that it says "Unlicensed Holder" which makes me giggle.

It does not do away with the current licensing scheme, so you can still get a regular LTC, which would be handy for going to other states that recognize Texas licenses.

I can see this setting up some interesting problems. If I have a license, I only need to look for 2 signs, but they do not apply to someone carrying without a license. And if someone only posts 30.08, I can do what I want there.

How many signs can be required before we get successful push back from the business community and what will be the end result of that pushback? Texas has been a very business friendly and property owner rights friendly state for much longer than it has been a second amendment friendly citizen carrying state. Our penal code section on unlawfully carrying can be traced back to the reconstruction era.