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kw5kw wrote:

srothstein wrote:Allow me to explain my logic please. It really makes the beauty of the 30.06/07 law more clear and something to be thankful for.

I have been saying all along that the 30.06/30.07 sign in Texas is a blessing for us and we need not be bad mouthing it.

Obviously, I agree.

kw5kw wrote:

srothstein wrote: Criminal Trespass is a violation of the law under section 30.05. That law says that if you enter onto any property without the effective consent of the owner you have violated the law. The lack of effective consent may be communicated orally or by printed sign or in a few other specific means (such as a fence designed to keep animals in or people out).

In the Panhandle/South Plains electric fences are common to keep livestock in while grazing on wheat fields. Said electric fences are to keep livestock in; would that be enough to keep people out as well?

Yes, the criminal trespass law (30.05) would make their crossing it illegal.

kw5kw wrote:

srothstein wrote:Please note that there is no law requiring the notice to have any specific format. In many cases under the law, the notification may be something fairly obscure. One example that people may not be aware of is a purple stripe painted on a fence post or even a tree. It has a few specific rules, such as height and width, but how many Texans are aware of the purple stripe law. And note that this actually applies anywhere in Texas. A purple stripe painted 1000 feet apart in a city means the entry is forbidden. That may not be known or clear to the visitor but it applies.

I was aware of this law, but I have a question:
Can the purple stripe be on only one tree, say in my front yard, or does it have to be between two trees or a combination of trees/fence posts?
So, could I simply tie a purple ribbon on the only tree in my front yard in lue of a "No Tresspassing" sign on my front door?

The law is not clear on how many trees or posts it has to be on. It is clear that it has to be paint, one inch by 8 inches (minimum) and placed between three and five feet from the ground. Assuming your property is less than 1000 feet wide, one tree might be enough, but I would suggest two to be safe.

kw5kw wrote:

srothstein wrote:The law may be unclear on what is required. For example, it specifies a fence obviously designed to keep livestock in or intruders out. If I have a plot of land that is 10 acres in size and plain pasture so you can see the whole thing and it is completely empty, is a three rail pipe fence designed to keep livestock in or intruders out? When there are no livestock on the land? But the law applies.

And finally, the law says a sign posted that is reasonably likely to come to the attention of a visitor is notice. It has no requirements for size or specific wording or coloration. So any sign would apply. The good thing is that it doesn't apply to a person with an LTC or a current peace officer if the reason is a gun.

So any sign that tells me that entry is forbidden would apply to me. ...

So, why not and get a LTC and be covered?
And, along these lines; Since, I'm assuming that all of here have a CHL/LTC, is there anytime we can say lay down our license and carry not under the authority that it gives? (say walk past a 30.06 sign or carry in the seat beside you and not in a belt holster ?) I know, another can of worms.

I have been considering getting an LTC and probably will with the lower costs now. It only give me one real benefit, which is the NICS check exemption. I currently carry under my retired peace officer license and LEOSA, and I don't really ever expect this one situation to come up for me. But getting the LTC would cover it if it happens.

One of the tricks I would be able to take advantage of then is that 30.06 and 30.07 do not apply to me and with the LTC 30.05 would give me an out also. This kind of answers your second question here, but you can always choose which authority you are carrying under if you have more than one. Otherwise, every peace officer who also got an LTC would have problems with 30.06/07 signs while on duty too.

An interesting side application of this comes with hotels that are posted. You can always carry when traveling under that exemption. And is there much better proof of traveling than being in a different city than yours and staying in a hotel? There is a caveat there that after you check in and get in your room, there is a question of whether you are traveling or not still. I believe there is a federal appellate precedent that would say no, but it is not from our circuit and the Fifth Circuit might disagree, especially if presented with better facts in a case.

ScottDLS wrote:

rotor wrote:

srothstein wrote:

skeathley wrote:"Gun-buster" refers to the gun in a circle, the intl symbol for no guns. By itself, it has no legal status in Texas. "No guns", "no weapons", "no firearms", etc. are all non-conforming signs, and have no force of law in Texas, including with knives.

I disagree on this. The signs are legal in Texas and can be enforced. They are not applicable to a person with an LTC carrying a pistol, but are all legal under Penal Code section 30.05 for everyone else or for other weapons.

What would be enforced? What are the size requirements? What other weapons? What percentage of the sign needs to be red? Does the sign have to have specific borders like in Illinois? How about long guns? How does the public know what a Beretta in a red circle with a slash specifically means? I know this has no effect on LTC holders but how about a gun owner bringing a gun into a hotel room where such a sign is posted outside? Especially if there is no wording on the sign. This can be enforced by law enforcement?

In order to be convicted of trespass under 30.05 you would have to be given notice that your entrance to the property was prohibited. I don't know how a sign with a circle slash pictogram meets that requirement. Particularly in a location open to the public. I am aware that 22 years ago AG Morales gave an opinion that 30.05 could be used to exclude handgun carriers, presumably licensed or otherwise, via a sign. No specification was given for the sign in the opinion, so I'm not sure where the idea of a pictogram came from. As far as I can tell there is no other evidence of 30.05 being enforced without explicit notice given that your entry was prohibited, not to be inferred from a list of rules or desires or a cartoon.

Anyway, I've always thought the opinion was dubious, especially since as written it would have applied to active peace officers whether on duty or not. But regardless, it became moot 2 years later in 1997 when 30.06 was passed. The form for excluding handgun carry was then explicitly specified. It actually wasn't until 2003 that the exclusion for CHL and LEO was added to 30.05, though in my opinion it wasn't necessary as related to SIGNS.

Allow me to explain my logic please. It really makes the beauty of the 30.06/07 law more clear and something to be thankful for.

Criminal Trespass is a violation of the law under section 30.05. That law says that if you enter onto any property without the effective consent of the owner you have violated the law. The lack of effective consent may be communicated orally or by printed sign or in a few other specific means (such as a fence designed to keep animals in or people out). Please note that there is no law requiring the notice to have any specific format. In many cases under the law, the notification may be something fairly obscure. One example that people may not be aware of is a purple stripe painted on a fence post or even a tree. It has a few specific rules, such as height and width, but how many Texans are aware of the purple stripe law. And note that this actually applies anywhere in Texas. A purple stripe painted 1000 feet apart in a city means the entry is forbidden. That may not be known or clear to the visitor but it applies.

The law may be unclear on what is required. For example, it specifies a fence obviously designed to keep livestock in or intruders out. If I have a plot of land that is 10 acres in size and plain pasture so you can see the whole thing and it is completely empty, is a three rail pipe fence designed to keep livestock in or intruders out? When there are no livestock on the land? But the law applies.

And finally, the law says a sign posted that is reasonably likely to come tot he attention of a visitor is notice. It has no requirements for size or specific wording or coloration. So any sign would apply. The good thing is that it doesn't apply to a person with an LTC or a current peace officer if the reason is a gun.

So any sign that tells me that entry is forbidden would apply to me. And, the whole concept of the red circle with a slash is that it is an internationally recognized symbol that whatever is contained in the circle is forbidden. Do you really think the court would buy that you thought it only applied to the specific make or style of pistol in the circle? I think they would extend it to any pistol at all and I bet the owner would say that is what he intended. What about a sign that said "No Weapons" in plain English? I would bet the court would include any knives, even the one inch blade folding Swiss army knife that I would never consider using as a weapon. They would also probably say it included the club I used to carry too, along with my Taser and OC spray.

And this is why people with an LTC owe so much to the TSRA, in my opinion. In other states, these very laws and signs we disparage and question still apply to licensed carriers too. They are regularly enforced by law enforcement there, and in Texas for things other than a licensed person with a pistol. Only in Texas (as far as I know) do we have such specific rules on what constitutes notice and how it must be posted with minimum size requirements and specific wording. If it is because you are carrying a gun, you do not need to worry about the vagueness of 30.05. And you do not need to worry about Dan Morales' opinion that was written when 30.05 did apply to licensed carriers. But it still would apply to people who are carrying that do not have a license.

As I said, I doubt we will see it anytime soon, especially since I trust the police to use common sense, but the law does apply as written still. And it says for non-licensed carriers, any sign does stop them from carrying a pistol And it still would apply to any person carrying a knife if it says no weapons.

skeathley wrote:"Gun-buster" refers to the gun in a circle, the intl symbol for no guns. By itself, it has no legal status in Texas. "No guns", "no weapons", "no firearms", etc. are all non-conforming signs, and have no force of law in Texas, including with knives.

I disagree on this. The signs are legal in Texas and can be enforced. They are not applicable to a person with an LTC carrying a pistol, but are all legal under Penal Code section 30.05 for everyone else or for other weapons.

The gun buster sign would apply to me, for example, when I am carrying under my retired peace officer ID. 30.06/07 does not apply since I am not a licensed carrier and they only apply to people with an LTC. It would not apply to an active peace officer, but I do not have the exemption under 30.05 that they do. It is a warning that I am not allowed to enter with a firearm, which is all 30.05 requires.

A "no weapons" sign would technically apply to a licensed person with a knife. Note that 30.05 applies to you for anything other than carrying a pistol you are licensed to carry. These are enforceable. I will freely stipulate that it makes no sense at all to me to ban a person for carrying a knife when he also has a legal pistol, but that is the way the law works. Your only hope might be to argue that the knife in question was not a weapon, but a tool used for specific purposes.

I don't think any of these will ever come up because i have some faith in police officers using common sense when applying the law. But, I wanted to point out that the law is there and what I think it means anyway. You might meet up with one of those officers who take a strict interpretation of the law. When that happens, you have lost when you are booked, even if you win the court case later.