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Beiruty wrote: How about KSA? Why the murder rate is just below 1 per 100k?

Comparing against other countries doesn't really tell you much because of the other factors involved.

For instance, Sweden has no death penalty and a murder rate of 1 per 100k.

Keith B wrote: Looking at these numbers your statement earlier is disproven. While there was a drop in 2009 from 2008, the rate has steadily climbed since then, however the rate has declined in states with the Death Penalty

Huh? My earlier statement that the murder rate in non-death penalty states is lower, and has been for years, matches the numbers. I'm honestly confused as to what you feel is being disproven?

Keith B wrote: The thing to remember is there is an appeal process and I don't know of any people who were actually put to death that did not have multiple appeals and were still found guilty. Not saying there may have been an innocent person (95% of the inmates will tell you they are not guilty), but think the process is pretty solid and the best we can do. I will say with new technology available that it should be used by law enforcement to prove as best possible that they either have or do not have the right person. The cost to run these tests would potentially be far less than the cost of trying an innocent person multiple times.

I totally understand your point of view, but in my personal opinion there have been enough close calls and questionable executions that it isn't worth it, especially when the only benefit to execution vs. life with no parole is punitive revenge. It is more expensive, leaves no room for error in an error prone system, and shows no appreciable deterrent effect. But that is just that. My personal opinion.

It isn't going to be abolished in this state anytime soon, so it is really a moot point.

edit: I also apologize for derailing the thread. It wasn't my intention and I'm going to drop it.

Charles L. Cotton wrote: Here's a link to a site I know nothing about, other than it claims to take the data from FBI reports. It appears to be an anti-death penalty site. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder- ... -and-state" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the numbers are correct, it disproves the argument that non-death penalty states have a lower overall murder rate. Many states with very low murder rates per 100,000 are also very small states and this is significant. You can't compare tiny states to Texas, California, New York and other much larger states.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from, because looking at the stats on that page:

For 2011, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.7, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.1

For 2010, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.6, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.9

For 2009, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 4.9, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 2.8

For 2008, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 5.2, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.3

You can click around that site and find other stats comparing neighboring states with different policies, and detailed breakdowns of the rates.

Charles L. Cotton wrote: For purposes of this discussion, note that California has the death penalty, but it isn't used. The 2011 murder rate was 4.8 and that's the lowest in many years. It was 9.1 in 1996. Compare that to Texas with a 4.4 murder rate.

I'm not arguing that the death penalty is a deterrent to crime in the U.S.; I simply don't know, nor do I care. If someone is philosophically against executing murderers then that's fine. That's their belief and their opinion and we disagree. I'm not going to try to change their mind and they are wasting their time trying to change mine. I believe that, in most cases, murderers deserve to die.

For those who argue the murder rate in non-death penalty states is lower than in death penalty states, the stats seem to disprove this argument. Plus, many states have a death penalty statute, but is rarely if every used. That certainly is no deterrent, but again, I don't care.

Chas.

Here is where we differ, I guess. I'm not opposed to executing murderers, rapists, and various other criminals. But the fact of it is that innocent people are convicted of crimes they didn't commit all the time. Our justice system isn't perfect, and it never can be. Having the state kill someone doesn't leave any room for mistakes, and having the state murder an innocent person is a (in my opinion) a far more heinous crime than letting a murderer rot in prison.

MeMelYup wrote:Personally I don’t like the death penalty, but I think it is a necessary evil. It is a deterrent.
Several years ago, 3 inmates escaped from Huntsville or somewhere, and killed several people on their way to Oklahoma. They knew what they were doing and didn’t care. One of them made the comment “if I get out again I’ll kill another one.”
Last year (I think) a man in the New England area either killed someone or tried. After he was caught he made a statement that, “he checked to see which state had a death penalty so he would be sure not to do it there because he didn’t want to die.”
Then you have the Prosecutors.

The murder rate in non-death penalty states has been lower for the last quarter century at least.

brainman wrote:I'm generally all for the death penalty. But Koolaid, you do make an excellent point. I have no idea how to reconcile that, though.

I changed my opinion of it over the last couple of years. I think the benefits of the death penalty as a deterrent or to satisfy a desire for the ultimate justice are outweighed by the very real potential of the state murdering even one innocent person.

I really can't even begin to imagine how terrifying that would be.

It has been a debated topic for probably thousands of years.

Ben Franklin and John Adams seem like a decent place to start, but I realize a lot of my opinions put me squarely in the minority here. haha.

I have always found it odd that the people who express the most distrust in the government and politics of the various courts are also the most adamant supporters of the death penalty.

There have been at least 12 people in Texas alone who sat on death row for years only to be exonerated.

But, it is what it is, I suppose.