Abolishing Property Tax?

This sub-forum will open for posting on Sept. 1, 2012.

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby cyphur » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:54 pm

I would rather be able to contest my property taxes, or personally manage my discretionary spending, than pay income tax. Income is not something I am willing to modulate in order to pay less taxes.

With that said, dropping property taxes down a bit and upping the ante on luxuries would be an interesting conversation. The problem then becomes, what is a luxury? My definition of a luxury may be a staple for others, or perhaps what others consider luxuries, I would consider staples.

Should firearms be a luxury or a staple? I would say staple, but I am sure someone who owns no firearms would disagree. What about a Corvette? I would argue against a corvette being a luxury, when an Aston Martin or Maserati is obviously far more expensive and bears less utility on a daily basis. Yet, many would likely say they are all luxuries. What about nice watches? Finer clothes? Fine dining?

Some might say - anything that is not groceries, gas, or medical care should be covered under a luxuries tax. I would disagree with this, but their argument would be discretionary spending above poverty level should incur the new tax - whereas my counter would be - then how do people on welfare afford these things?

Invariably it turns into class warfare and large swaths of people become disenfranchised over said new tax.



As Chas has made clear - if the Government is going to cut spending, they need to consider cutting services. Simple as that.....


I completely agree with urnoodle - any learning I've done after leaving a private school in NY at the age of 12 has been done on my own. It certainly did not occur as a result of attending public schools in Texas(well, except maybe Biology class. I doubt I would have dissected a frog that methodically on my own). I am not trying to be a snob, but the culture in public school certainly has nothing to do with education. I'd gladly home school my children, and they would learn twice as much in half the time.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." ~ Edmund Burke
"Despite what your momma told you, violence does solve problems." - Ryan Job, SEAL Team 3
cyphur
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1178
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:02 am
Location: Flower mound, Tx

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby Scott in Houston » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:01 pm

I always prefer a consumption tax over income tax... it allows you to save when you need to, and keep what you need.
Both property taxes and sales taxes hit that side of the coin. If we ever move to income tax... bad news for Texas.
User avatar
Scott in Houston
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1186
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:19 am
Location: Houston

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby srothstein » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:02 pm

There are a few points to consider. First, the property tax does not fund anything at the state level, just at local levels. It is the primary means of financing schools, city and county governments, and most of the special service districts (hospital districts, crime districts, utility districts, etc.). So, any change in property tax MUST include how you will fix school finance.

And second, to give you and idea of what is involved, 47% of all taxes raised in Texas at the state or lower levels comes from property tax. That includes money from the sales tax, entertainment taxes, franchise taxes, excise taxes, severance taxes, etc.

So, figure that a sales tax would have to more than double to keep the same income level. Of course, the level could be slightly lowered by adding more things to the sales tax. Or we could use a state income tax to replace it. And yes, there are some services we might be able to cut, but I don't think we would agree on them any more than we would agree on how to replace the tax.

I do not see the property tax as the worst possible tax, even though I hate the idea of renting property from the state. I do like flat taxes, so I think we could improve the tax by doing away with all exemptions and breaks on it.

Of course, my proposal for fixing school funding is to do away with school district taxing authority and go to one statewide property tax dedicated to school funding. Decide how much is needed per student, how many students there are, and how much property there is. That gives you a uniform tax rate for across the state. Then it gets divided to the school districts based on how many students they have.
Steve Rothstein
srothstein
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3494
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:27 pm
Location: Luling, TX

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby urnoodle » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:19 pm

I disagree with removing exemptions however I agree with removing the commercial breaks that are often given to large corporations. My biggest complaint with property taxes is the ISD portion. They are not assessed equally. As I previously mentioned I don't have children, however, I pay the exact same ISD tax as a neighbor who has the same size house with the same value but who has 4 children using the public school system. I've heard the argument that I should invest in the future by helping to provide an education to children who will be contributing to the future economy. Everyone needs to invest in that future but my burden should not be more than that of the parents of those children.
U R Noodle
CHL since 1/26/2012 - 41 days mailbox to mailbox
User avatar
urnoodle
Senior Member
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:47 am
Location: DFW

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby cyphur » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:19 am

srothstein wrote:There are a few points to consider. First, the property tax does not fund anything at the state level, just at local levels. It is the primary means of financing schools, city and county governments, and most of the special service districts (hospital districts, crime districts, utility districts, etc.). So, any change in property tax MUST include how you will fix school finance.

And second, to give you and idea of what is involved, 47% of all taxes raised in Texas at the state or lower levels comes from property tax. That includes money from the sales tax, entertainment taxes, franchise taxes, excise taxes, severance taxes, etc.

So, figure that a sales tax would have to more than double to keep the same income level. Of course, the level could be slightly lowered by adding more things to the sales tax. Or we could use a state income tax to replace it. And yes, there are some services we might be able to cut, but I don't think we would agree on them any more than we would agree on how to replace the tax.

I do not see the property tax as the worst possible tax, even though I hate the idea of renting property from the state. I do like flat taxes, so I think we could improve the tax by doing away with all exemptions and breaks on it.

Of course, my proposal for fixing school funding is to do away with school district taxing authority and go to one statewide property tax dedicated to school funding. Decide how much is needed per student, how many students there are, and how much property there is. That gives you a uniform tax rate for across the state. Then it gets divided to the school districts based on how many students they have.



I would rather fund my local school than somewhere else. You cannot raise education to the level we need it to be by spreading wealth around. It's a sad fact but impoverished areas will remain so without redistribution, but to do so at the expense of the more affluent areas' education resources is equally absurd.

Of course, this stands to reason that it would be more beneficial for society to give impoverished areas a slice of excess funds than build a new stadium, but to mandate it to where local schools cannot elect to reinvest in their own district towards legitimate educational goals is equally appalling on the other side of the isle.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." ~ Edmund Burke
"Despite what your momma told you, violence does solve problems." - Ryan Job, SEAL Team 3
cyphur
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1178
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:02 am
Location: Flower mound, Tx

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby LeandroFossy » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:08 am

I feel that we have to pay the money in any case so doesn't matter under what heading we are paying it property tax or income tax or sales tax.
Read a great article about it here.
LeandroFossy
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:52 pm

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby rotor » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:55 am

Wait until Obamacare is really going and everyone is on Medicaid. Watch the state going broke trying to meet that expense. I believe this is why Rick Perry would not accept Federal funds for Obamacare. The feds give money now and then stop giving, leaves all of the expense on the state and then how is that paid for. Watch what happens to taxes in Texas as we have to cover that rising Medicaid numbers. Interesting times coming up. Feds don't care if their budget is balanced. States must balance therefore we will be stuck paying. Somewhere the money will have to come.
rotor
Senior Member
 
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 pm

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby cb1000rider » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:07 am

urnoodle wrote: As I previously mentioned I don't have children, however, I pay the exact same ISD tax as a neighbor who has the same size house with the same value but who has 4 children using the public school system. I've heard the argument that I should invest in the future by helping to provide an education to children who will be contributing to the future economy. Everyone needs to invest in that future but my burden should not be more than that of the parents of those children.


Look at it this way:
When you were a kid, some neighbor who didn't have kids helped pay for your education. You're not so much paying for your neighbors 4 kids as you are helping pay for the education that was afforded to you.
Kids are expensive. Really expensive. Although there is an income tax deduction, it doesn't make up in what parents have to contribute to the economy. You're not subsidizing all of it.

As someone who didn't used to have kids.. I get it.. Trust me.

I thought this would be an discussion on the "constitutionality" of taxation. It's nice to see that the discussion is reasonable and that people recognize that the money has to come from somewhere. I'd love an alternate tax system. Our tax system is so radically complicated that it's ridiculous. Even the property tax system is setup so it's pretty unfair if you don't stay on top of it.

I like the idea of a flat tax or fair tax. However, if you tax my purchases at 15% it's going to provide a lot of motivation for me to start buying things that don't have taxes collected on them.
The other problem with it is that tax revenues move with the economy. People stop spending in hard times and that's usually when spending on social programs has to go up.
cb1000rider
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1722
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:27 pm

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby philip964 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

My property tax exceeds my social security "income" by one third. I had hoped my social security "income" would pay all my property taxes. So when they talk about social security not being there, I get really nervous.

About $3000 a year of the property tax is for the Harris County Hospital District. So with Obamacare now the law of the land, and everyone will have health insurance. This tax will go away, right, because there will be no need for indigent care.

Any one want to bet with me.
philip964
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3420
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby OldCannon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:26 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:People will do everything they can to make significant purchases in other states, or over the Internet.


If you want a perfect example of this: My "sales to transfer" ratio for firearms is approximately 1:300. I keep my prices low enough to be competitive with internet dealers (meaning my profit margin is EXTREMELY small), but sales tax means that no matter what I ask, you're giving 8% above that to the state. In fact, I have NEVER made a local sale where I make more (percentage-wise) than the state does. This is why I'm trying to get rid of what inventory I have left before the end of the year and move to a "transfers only" model.

Moreover, there is absolutely no incentive for people to pay the state "use tax," which you are technically obligated to pay for any item you purchase in which you did not pay sales tax (so that nice Daniel Defense model you got a sweet deal on through GunBroker? You owe the state $160 for that, just as soon as you voluntarily fill out the use tax paperwork and send the form in with a check :lol: )

My general thinking is that a model that increases sales tax will only damage sales tax revenue, not improve it.

Most tax folks will tell you that the best taxation flexibility comes from a "three legged stool" of taxation: property tax, income tax, and sales tax. I'm grateful, in many ways, that Texas doesn't have an income tax. As for property taxes, I think Texas can benefit from a reduction in certain kinds of property taxes, but I think an elimination of them is merely wishful thinking. Revenue has to come from somewhere, but taxation does not follow the "squeezing the balloon" model, because people control their money and where it goes. The only way the "raise the sales tax" model would work is if Texas enforced EVERY purchase to be moved through their own purchasing pipeline. That sounds more like a California model than a Texas model :lol:
I don't fear guns; I fear voters and politicians that fear guns.
The Old Cannon Armory is an FFL/SOT in the Austin area. We now carry FROGLUBE products
$20 transfers for current CHL holders, fire/police, and veterans, $30 for others, $50 for Class III items
User avatar
OldCannon
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:19 am
Location: Pflugerville, TX (Between a Rock and a Weird Place)

Re: Abolishing Property Tax?

Postby psijac » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:30 am

Starting taxing churches, and mosques, and synagogues/temples.

I am pretty sure Joel Olsten has some loose pocket change he can spare. I know it sounds crass to take from God but when you can afford to buy out an entire NBA basketball arena and covert it to a church it's hard to say God needs that money. Also a "study" found that over 60% of monetary donations never reaches God but instead stays here on earth.
07/25/09 - CHL class completed
07/31/09 - Received Pin/Packet sent.
09/23/09 - Plastic in hand!!
User avatar
psijac
Senior Member
 
Posts: 885
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:08 am

Previous

Return to 2013 Texas Legislative Session

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest