Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

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Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby AEA » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:27 am

Charles.......
This is terrible,...... DPS especially of all Agency's doing this:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=59844

Can we get some Legislation drafted and filed to stop this activity for CHL holders? Or get something to stop this attached to a Bill that has a good chance of passing?

DPS especially........but other Agency's as well, need to be forced to stop this procedure with CHL Holders.

Do you agree?
Last edited by AEA on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby jimlongley » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:46 am

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that any serial number run by any agency went into a central database. It wouldn't be called gun registration, or even record keeping, just noting that the gun had been cleared of any involvement in crimes in the past, just in case it pops up some time in the future. Just a simple little database that just happens to contain the owner's name, address, and other identifying information.

But I am NOT paranoid, it just wouldn't surprise me.
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby AEA » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:20 am

The point is........if one of us is going to carry a stolen gun, why would we go thru all the hoops to get a CHL in the first place?

People (like us) do not carry around stolen guns or anything else and the background check we went through confirms this.

I would willingly go along with the disarming of a CHL holder by a COMPETENT LEO (for Officer Safety) **Different subject** Already actually part of a LAW but I cannot cite it.

But what Law gives them the AUTHORITY to run serial numbers of CHL holder's guns? This is obviously a "Policy" adopted by various Agency's and it makes me SICK that DPS is doing it!

This HAS TO BE STOPPED!

The ONLY guns that could pass this "sniff" test is those carried under the MPA and those carried by anyone OTHER THAN a CHL.

Wonder if the LEO's are running each other's guns to see if they are stolen? I kinda doubt it! :roll:

I can see it now.....CHL holder stopped, Disarmed, LEO runs serial number (incorrectly) and CHL is arrested for "Stolen gun". Do we need this? I don't think so.....
Last edited by AEA on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby Abraham » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:12 am

Do they also run VIN numbers to be certain the vehicle being driven by the CHL holder isn't stolen?
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby AEA » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:28 am

Abraham wrote:Do they also run VIN numbers to be certain the vehicle being driven by the CHL holder isn't stolen?

:iagree: EXCELLENT POINT :thumbs2: :txflag:
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby Keith B » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:45 am

AEA wrote:
Abraham wrote:Do they also run VIN numbers to be certain the vehicle being driven by the CHL holder isn't stolen?

:iagree: EXCELLENT POINT :thumbs2: :txflag:


Some times, but usually if the plate and vehicle match and comes up clean then the suspicion is less that the vehicle may stolen.

As to the serial number running, I believe it is a stretch for a LEO to take it there, even after disarming a CHL for there own perceived safety. What needs to be done is get rid of the disarming capability and the serial number running will go away also. A few well stated letters to the DA of the county and talk of civil rights violations may also get this type of 'papiere bitte' tactics stopped.
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby WildBill » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:49 am

It doesn't seem to me that one post from just one person is enough evidence to show that this is a new DPS policy.
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby AEA » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:16 pm

That's a good point WildBill. :thumbs2:

It may even be just one new (inexperienced) Trooper who thinks what he is doing is legal and prudent.

But it got me going good enough to suggest to Charles in the 2013 session to get something done about this.

Even if it turns out to NOT be DPS doing this, we all know that it is in fact done by other Agency's as their "Policy".

The "Policy" needs to be "nipped in the bud", quickly, for ALL Texas LEO Agency's!
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby srothstein » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:38 pm

AEA wrote:But what Law gives them the AUTHORITY to run serial numbers of CHL holder's guns?


The Fourth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, as interpreted by the Supreme Court of the United States.

Well, more specifically, our principals of anything not forbidden is legal. The 4th amendment lists what is prohibited. In this case, the SCOTUS has ruled that it is reasonable for an officer to search or seize something that is in plain view. Plain view is defined as what an officer can see when he is in a position or place he has a legal right to be in. So, once an officer has legally disarmed a person for his safety, he can see the serial number (most of the time) and can therefore legally run it.

So, if the officer disarms the person for his safety, I am confident the courts would say running the serial number is legal. What would not be legal would be to disarm the person just for the purpose of running the serial number. So far, the reports are that the troopers are disarming the person for safety reasons not just for running the serial.

I do not agree with the principles of running the license, just reporting that I think it is legal in most cases.


Abraham wrote:Do they also run VIN numbers to be certain the vehicle being driven by the CHL holder isn't stolen?


Actually, yes. They run the license plate on every car they stop, which checks for it being stolen and gets the registration return. The registration return tells them the year, make, VIN, and style of car, as well as the owner's name. If something doesn't match up, the officer will check further. If the car is not reported stolen and the make and year match the registration, the officer probably would not check further.

On a side note, not checking further might be a mistake. I had one case where I stopped someone for a violation and found he had warrants. The car did not come back as stolen. The driver was going to jail for the warrant so I had to impound the car. I filled out the tow slip from the computer in my car. This included the VIN. For some reason, I looked at the car's VIN as I was finishing up the tow slip and found it did not match the one I had written down. So, running the VIN, I found the car had been stolen in Louisiana two years earlier. The driver admitted he had stolen the same year, make, and model of car that he owned because his was trashed and this way he could drive without getting caught. It had worked for two years until he messed up on something else and got warrants.
Last edited by srothstein on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby C-dub » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:26 pm

What would happen if I had a lock box, like this one http://www.autosafes.net/ and if I were stopped, locked the gun inside before the office approached me? If the officer asked if I were armed what could my response be? Could I say, yes, tell the officer where it was, but still refuse to remove it from the locked safe? How much trouble would I be in? Any?
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby TexasCajun » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:39 pm

I believe that if your weapon is in a lock box & not on your person, then you can answer no to the question of whether you are armed or not. I also believe that retrieving the weapon from the lock box would require consent or a warrant. Usual disclaimers apply.
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby Abraham » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:08 am

I would say: Yes - In a locked lock box - if I did indeed I had it kept there.

Stating "no" could open up a big can of worms...I won't quibble with the truth.

Routinely disarming CHLers and running their firearms serial numbers as a general policy smacks of a police state - irrespective of torturing the Fourth Amendment.
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby powerboatr » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:32 am

just asking
but aren't the serial numbers already in the atf database? When i purchase a new firearm the serial number is listed on the atf form.

i would say private sales..the number may never get transferred to the new owner.
interesting.
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby jimlongley » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:24 am

powerboatr wrote:just asking
but aren't the serial numbers already in the atf database? When i purchase a new firearm the serial number is listed on the atf form.

i would say private sales..the number may never get transferred to the new owner.
interesting.


That form stays in the possession of the owner of the gun store until such time as that store goes out of business, at which time the form passes on to BATFE where they are not supposed, by law, to record any of the information on the forms.
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Re: Running Serial Numbers of weapons of CHL holders.

Postby powerboatr » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:14 pm

jimlongley wrote:
powerboatr wrote:just asking
but aren't the serial numbers already in the atf database? When i purchase a new firearm the serial number is listed on the atf form.

i would say private sales..the number may never get transferred to the new owner.
interesting.


That form stays in the possession of the owner of the gun store until such time as that store goes out of business, at which time the form passes on to BATFE where they are not supposed, by law, to record any of the information on the forms.

that cleared that up, i wasnt sure.
but ...the odds of dps actually having up to date serial info is slim
wouldn't you think

seems like a huge waste of resource time to check chl holders for stolen items, but we do get bad apples now and again.

i was just thinking...my XD has some replacement parts that have different numbers from the frame..
i have a 1967 colt model 1911, i bought it NEW in 2010, it sat in a store the went out of bus and was sold to me..yes it sat from 1967 to 2010 in the box :headscratch
think its number is LOST ?
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