Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby RKirkwood » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:30 pm

It will be interesting to see if this comes up in 2013. I'm afraid with all the anti gun hoopla that Obama and his bunch are pushing if its not held off for at least a year waiting on everything to calm down.

I really think it is going to be a long hard fight.
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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:46 pm

RedRaider wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
TexasCajun wrote:I like it. Especially the idea of turning the question around -
The question should not be “why would you need a handgun,” it should be “is there a compelling reason to exclude handguns?”
I do have one question and one point to add.

The question: If there is already a prohibition against being intoxicated while carrying concealed, why continue to exclued concealed carry in 51% establishments?

It won't pass without keeping bars off-limits.

TexasCajun wrote:And my one point: Requiring a CHL holder to disarm before entering a prohibited place actually creates more of a public safety issue. When my gun is holstered & concealed, the chance of a negligent discharge is virtually non-existant. However, when I have to unconceal and unholster my weapon to put it in secure storage, the risk of a negligent discharge goes up significantly due to the very nature of having to handle the weapon. Then re-arming after leaving the prohibited place again increases the ND risk. In these circumstances the ND risk is even higher because the weapon-handling is usually taking place in cramped & seated position within a car. Even re-holstering a micro-compact 9mm pistol IWB puts the CHL'er in an awkward, contorting position.


We really don't want to argue that every time a CHL takes his/her gun out of a holster, we are risking an accidental discharge. :thumbs2: We know what the opposition will be saying.

Chas.


How about looking at it a different way. Having to leave your gun in the car causes more of a public safety issue as it is no longer under your control and could potentially be stolen by a criminal? Just food for thought.


Carrying in bars will never pass, regardless how it's packaged or creative one is in coming up with sound bites. I'm not willing to risk the entire bill trying to convince Senators, Representatives and the general public that alcohol and guns do mix, in spite of what every responsible gun owner has said for a hundred years.

Come on guys; we're talking about a sea change in Texas law and you're upset because you won't be able to carry in a bar? :banghead:

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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby jmra » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:09 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Carrying in bars will never pass, regardless how it's packaged or creative one is in coming up with sound bites. I'm not willing to risk the entire bill trying to convince Senators, Representatives and the general public that alcohol and guns do mix, in spite of what every responsible gun owner has said for a hundred years.

Come on guys; we're talking about a sea change in Texas law and you're upset because you won't be able to carry in a bar? :banghead:

Chas.


:iagree: getting this passed is much more important than throwing back a few with your buddies.
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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby TexasCajun » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:16 pm

Sorry for sounding greedy. I figured we've got a chance to gain more ground next session than we've originally planned. Figured why not ask about the whole shebang. I don't drink, so the bar issue isn't really a big one for me. And I don't hang out in bars on a regular basis. Again, just asking.
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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby mojo84 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:19 pm

I have no problem not being able to carry into a bar. I seldom go into a 51% establishment and when I do, leaving my gun in the car or at home is not a problem for me. I would probably do it whether it was the law or not. If I really didn't want to be unarmed, I'd choose not to go to the bar.
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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby RHenriksen » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:37 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Carrying in bars will never pass, regardless how it's packaged or creative one is in coming up with sound bites. I'm not willing to risk the entire bill trying to convince Senators, Representatives and the general public that alcohol and guns do mix, in spite of what every responsible gun owner has said for a hundred years.

Come on guys; we're talking about a sea change in Texas law and you're upset because you won't be able to carry in a bar? :banghead:

Chas.


Hey, I'm not upset! The goals outlined all sound wonderful.
I'll quit carrying a gun when they make murder and armed robbery illegal

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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby Heartland Patriot » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:45 am

I personally do not care one little bit about not carrying into an actual knock-back-shots-of-booze bar...what I do care about is carrying at college, which I will be attending again soon for more technical courses...and like tonight, having to disarm to go into a hospital, among other things. This is an EXCELLENT idea of a bill and I would be overjoyed were it to pass.
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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby RedRaider » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:53 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
RedRaider wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
TexasCajun wrote:I like it. Especially the idea of turning the question around -
The question should not be “why would you need a handgun,” it should be “is there a compelling reason to exclude handguns?”
I do have one question and one point to add.

The question: If there is already a prohibition against being intoxicated while carrying concealed, why continue to exclued concealed carry in 51% establishments?

It won't pass without keeping bars off-limits.

TexasCajun wrote:And my one point: Requiring a CHL holder to disarm before entering a prohibited place actually creates more of a public safety issue. When my gun is holstered & concealed, the chance of a negligent discharge is virtually non-existant. However, when I have to unconceal and unholster my weapon to put it in secure storage, the risk of a negligent discharge goes up significantly due to the very nature of having to handle the weapon. Then re-arming after leaving the prohibited place again increases the ND risk. In these circumstances the ND risk is even higher because the weapon-handling is usually taking place in cramped & seated position within a car. Even re-holstering a micro-compact 9mm pistol IWB puts the CHL'er in an awkward, contorting position.


We really don't want to argue that every time a CHL takes his/her gun out of a holster, we are risking an accidental discharge. :thumbs2: We know what the opposition will be saying.

Chas.


How about looking at it a different way. Having to leave your gun in the car causes more of a public safety issue as it is no longer under your control and could potentially be stolen by a criminal? Just food for thought.


Carrying in bars will never pass, regardless how it's packaged or creative one is in coming up with sound bites. I'm not willing to risk the entire bill trying to convince Senators, Representatives and the general public that alcohol and guns do mix, in spite of what every responsible gun owner has said for a hundred years.

Come on guys; we're talking about a sea change in Texas law and you're upset because you won't be able to carry in a bar? :banghead:

Chas.


Charles, sorry my comment was geared towards having to unarm when entering off limit locations and how it decreases public safety, not at bars specifically, I know trying to remove bars as off limits is a losing battle. Schools need to be front and center.
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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby gigag04 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:01 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Not only is this an astounding statistic, it is far better than that achieved by Texas law enforcement.

Chas - as we have found in the other thread, this is definitely the case, but I'm curious if you have access to the actual numbers? The best we could in the thread get was not an apples to apples comparison and I think it was 0.3 for LE and 0.24 for CHLs - if you had better data I'd love to bookmark to share with fellow LE folks.

Also - great article, I'm interested to follow this legislative session.
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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby mojo84 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:43 am

I too would like to see the actual data for law enforcement officers.

I also suspect the data would reflect quite a bit of variance by location and agency. Thinking New York, Chicago etc.
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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:23 am

TexasCajun wrote:Sorry for sounding greedy. I figured we've got a chance to gain more ground next session than we've originally planned. Figured why not ask about the whole shebang. I don't drink, so the bar issue isn't really a big one for me. And I don't hang out in bars on a regular basis. Again, just asking.


You're not being greedy, you just want more than we can get through the legislature. I've been running this idea around Austin for a couple of years and the first question is usually something like "you don't want to carry in bars, do you!?"

Sorry if I came on too strong in my last post yesterday. I spent over 6 hours with a phone screwed in my ear talking/arguing about bills, committees, meetings, etc. I guess I let my frustration toward other factors come through in my post.

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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:31 am

gigag04 wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:Not only is this an astounding statistic, it is far better than that achieved by Texas law enforcement.

Chas - as we have found in the other thread, this is definitely the case, but I'm curious if you have access to the actual numbers? The best we could in the thread get was not an apples to apples comparison and I think it was 0.3 for LE and 0.24 for CHLs - if you had better data I'd love to bookmark to share with fellow LE folks.

Also - great article, I'm interested to follow this legislative session.


I'm waiting on an Open Records Request to TCLEOSE to get updated numbers. When I do this, all my COP buddies and contacts fear I'm going after LEOs and that's not the case. I just want to be able to refute arguments that it's safe to let LEOs carry in _____________ but not CHLs.

The last time I made an ORR was in 2006 for the 2007 session and the LEO record was exactly half as good as CHLs. It also took 11 months to get a response to my ORR instead of the statutorily-required 10 days. When the data is in and the comparison is run, 'll post whether or not CHLs still have a better record, but I will not post the data. I do not want anyone to think I'm going after LEOs. That would cause a huge backlash in the legislature that could cost us dearly. My point is simply that LEOs have a good track record and CHLs have an even better record. If anyone wants the actual numbers, they will have to do their own ORR.

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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby RHenriksen » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:36 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
gigag04 wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:Not only is this an astounding statistic, it is far better than that achieved by Texas law enforcement.

Chas - as we have found in the other thread, this is definitely the case, but I'm curious if you have access to the actual numbers? The best we could in the thread get was not an apples to apples comparison and I think it was 0.3 for LE and 0.24 for CHLs - if you had better data I'd love to bookmark to share with fellow LE folks.

Also - great article, I'm interested to follow this legislative session.


I'm waiting on an Open Records Request to TCLEOSE to get updated numbers. When I do this, all my COP buddies and contacts fear I'm going after LEOs and that's not the case. I just want to be able to refute arguments that it's safe to let LEOs carry in _____________ but not CHLs.

The last time I made an ORR was in 2006 for the 2007 session and the LEO record was exactly half as good as CHLs. It also took 11 months to get a response to my ORR instead of the statutorily-required 10 days. When the data is in and the comparison is run, 'll post whether or not CHLs still have a better record, but I will not post the data. I do not want anyone to think I'm going after LEOs. That would cause a huge backlash in the legislature that could cost us dearly. If anyone wants the actual numbers, they will have to do their own ORR.

Chas.


Frustrating that the law requires a response in ten days, but apparently has no teeth in the event an agency takes 30x that long?
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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby mojo84 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:56 am

Withholding the data from the public creates suspicion and distrust. The LEO's have a goid record and they should be willing to make the data available. From what I've heard, they don't release it because of "officer safety".
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Policing by technicality is as bad as getting off on a technicality.
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Re: Reduce Off-Limits Areas for Texas CHL’s

Postby shootthesheet » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:00 pm

oldtexan wrote:Charles,

Are you at liberty to discuss whether the legislation being drafted/considered addresses concealed carry on the premises of educational institutions?

Thanks.
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