Volunteer School Defense Forces?

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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby chasfm11 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:26 am

MeMelYup wrote:Why are they having such a hard time passing CHL carry on college campuses here in Texas?

Because the college and university presidents are flaming antis and put up a huge fuss with a lot of misleading "facts" last session.
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby jmra » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:13 pm

chasfm11 wrote:
MeMelYup wrote:Why are they having such a hard time passing CHL carry on college campuses here in Texas?

Because the college and university presidents are flaming antis and put up a huge fuss with a lot of misleading "facts" last session.

Yep, and most public school district superintendents are university president wannabes.
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby 2farnorth » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:22 pm

I signed up but I don't have a whole of hope right now. The anti's have a lot of momentum and are not interested in any reasonable alternative. Maybe after it cools down some more we might make progress.
Personally, I'm not interested in any TCLEOSE certifications. I have been a commissioned security officer in the past and am retired military I just want to volunteer a day or two a week, no pay, no uniform other than a school ID badge etc. Non-lethal weapons okay for stepped approach but I always want MY concealed side arm available as a final solution. I want to be able to blend into the school background. No scheduled routines.
I understand that some training will need to be accomplished and strict rules will have to be applied.
The hardest part is going to be an event where a student/students are the BGs. You have to be sure that YOU CAN do what ever is necessary to neutralize the threat. Hope I never have to prove it. :txflag:
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby MeMelYup » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:02 pm

jmra wrote:
chasfm11 wrote:
MeMelYup wrote:Why are they having such a hard time passing CHL carry on college campuses here in Texas?

Because the college and university presidents are flaming antis and put up a huge fuss with a lot of misleading "facts" last session.

Yep, and most public school district superintendents are university president wannabes.

That is why there will be a problem arming school faculty.
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby baldeagle » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:17 pm

MeMelYup wrote:Why are they having such a hard time passing CHL carry on college campuses here in Texas?

Because the antis are better organized and have raw emotion on their side and because some politicians have no courage. To be a good leader you have to do the right thing no matter how much opposition you receive. There are very few leaders in politics.
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby oldtexan » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:49 am

MeMelYup wrote:Why are they having such a hard time passing CHL carry on college campuses here in Texas?


I'm not an expert on our legislative process and don't have any first-hand knowledge on previous attempts to get this legislation passed, but here's my opinion from watching those attempts as an interested outsider.

I think the issue is unimportant to most Texans. Our side (very small numbers of people) wants it pushed through but has limited influence. The other side(also very few people) doesn't want it to happen because of fear of accidental shootings, bad judgment incidents, etc, leading to bad publicity (and thus maybe civil action, reduced enrollment, and reduced funding) for the institutions. The other side includes some authority figures in higher ed, and their opinions are probably much more persuasive to the public and to elected officials than ours. Very few people in Texas really think that crime is enough of a problem to warrant the perceived additional risks of having CHLs carry in campus buildings. Lastly, the legislature only meets a limited number of days every other year, and campus carry isn't seen as important enough by the public or our elected officials to warrant taking up scarce legislative time to get it passed.
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby cyphur » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:56 am

Crossfire wrote:Absolutely. And already signed up.

You should too! http://nraschoolshield.com/


Thank you sir, I have now as well!
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby jmra » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:01 am

cyphur wrote:
Crossfire wrote:Absolutely. And already signed up.

You should too! http://nraschoolshield.com/


Thank you sir, I have now as well!


Might want to change that to "ma'am".
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby cyphur » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:04 am

jmra wrote:
cyphur wrote:
Crossfire wrote:Absolutely. And already signed up.

You should too! http://nraschoolshield.com/


Thank you sir, I have now as well!


Might want to change that to "ma'am".


Duly noted......


Apologies Crossfire! :oops:
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby benenglishtx » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:32 am

jmra wrote:Of course there is another way to do this. If you have your CHL - lock and load, grab a lawn chair and sit in front of the school of your choice. Make sure you have your cell phone to report anything that doesn't look right. Just a thought...

Texas and the U.S. haven't gone as nuts in this area as, say, Great Britain, but just try and see what happens. I used to be a photographer and "street photography" (ala' Henri Cartier-Bresson or even Weegee) was once considered a noble calling; just try taking pictures of kids not your own in a public park these days. Try sitting outside a school and keeping watch.

You'd get called in to the local police as "suspected pedophile loitering near children" within minutes.
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby chasfm11 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:49 pm

benenglishtx wrote:
jmra wrote:Of course there is another way to do this. If you have your CHL - lock and load, grab a lawn chair and sit in front of the school of your choice. Make sure you have your cell phone to report anything that doesn't look right. Just a thought...

Texas and the U.S. haven't gone as nuts in this area as, say, Great Britain, but just try and see what happens. I used to be a photographer and "street photography" (ala' Henri Cartier-Bresson or even Weegee) was once considered a noble calling; just try taking pictures of kids not your own in a public park these days. Try sitting outside a school and keeping watch.

You'd get called in to the local police as "suspected pedophile loitering near children" within minutes.

:iagree: Our Town's bike path runs along the rear bus drive of an elementary school. Though I'm on that part for less than 20 seconds, I've been told by the Principal of that school that I cannot be there because he would "get 20 phone calls from hysterical mothers about some guy hanging around the school."

One of the main reasons that I don't carry while I'm riding is that I suspect that there might come a day when I get reported for being on the bike trail. I'm not willing to risk the legal fees that might be needed to extract myself from the resulting situation.

Even if I had the full faith and confidence of the entire school administration and teachers for sitting in the lawn chair in front of the school, there would be nothing to stop some passerby or a LEO from making an issue of it. Besides, the right place to try to stop a threat to the school is with the element of surprise from within the building. Otherwise, you are likely to be just the first fatality.
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby SA-TX » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:12 am

srothstein wrote:Thanks for the points JP171. I was aware of the CE part because I am still trying to figure out where I am going to get time for 40 hours before August this year. But, I had not thought of the cost of insurance for the unpaid volunteers. As for the work part, I think that could be handled as part of the agreement with the volunteer. No one can make a volunteer do things he does not want to do so this is part of the program set-up.

I think almost all of the CHLs will meet the qualifications to be an LEO. I thought that some might not make the physical part, but that is really just a doctor's opinion on things. From my experience, most doctors will agree if you can do the job you explain you intend to do.

So, it may not be as easy as I think, but none of this seems to rule out the plan. There may be more details to work out in it, but it still looks workable. I will go down and talk with my school board in Luling and see what they think. Our Constable will probably agree to carry the commissions since he already ahs a couple reserves.

I think the problem of allowing a CHL to volunteer is in changing the law on working security. We could also work out the details on that, but it does require a legal change since a volunteer CHL cannot be there to work security (as we have already discussed for church security plans). That would be my fall back for the legislative session.


Steve, the following may or may not solve the OC 1701 issue (working security) but it might eliminate all of the licensure hassles:

LGC 85.004(b) authorizes a sheriff to appoint reserve deputies (if the Commissioners Court has granted that power). The sheriff may allow reserve deputies who are licensed peace officers to act as an LEO at all times. Here's the key part -- reserve deputies who are not licensed peace officers may still act as peace officers but only during the actual discharge of their assigned duties.

"A reserve deputy who is not a peace officer as described by Article 2.12, Code of Criminal Procedure, may act as a peace officer only during the actual discharge of official duties."

I take this to mean that you a cop when "on duty" but you are not when you aren't. 85.04(d) seems to confirm this with the following language:

"(d) A reserve deputy on active duty at the call of the sheriff and actively engaged in assigned duties has the same rights, privileges, and duties as any other peace officer of the state."

The same seems to be true with reserve constables via LGC 86.012(b) and (d).

Couldn't willing sheriffs and constables appoint reserve deputies, who are not peace officers, and order them to patrol particular school campuses and/or specify times but clearly state in the order that is the full extent of their authority unless specifically directed otherwise? Wouldn't such a deputy be acting in a law enforcement capacity - due to the specific assignment - rather than as a private security guard (which is usually a cop's 2nd job and not directly connected to his department)?

IANAL but just trying to think outside the box.

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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby jmra » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:24 am

benenglishtx wrote:
jmra wrote:Of course there is another way to do this. If you have your CHL - lock and load, grab a lawn chair and sit in front of the school of your choice. Make sure you have your cell phone to report anything that doesn't look right. Just a thought...

Texas and the U.S. haven't gone as nuts in this area as, say, Great Britain, but just try and see what happens. I used to be a photographer and "street photography" (ala' Henri Cartier-Bresson or even Weegee) was once considered a noble calling; just try taking pictures of kids not your own in a public park these days. Try sitting outside a school and keeping watch.

You'd get called in to the local police as "suspected pedophile loitering near children" within minutes.

I would say that depends on the size of the school and your relationship with administration and the community.
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby AlphaWhiskey » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:03 am

I'm suprised to see it hasn't already been mentioned, but what of a Peace Officer's DUTY to act in the presence of crime? I think the intentions are noble, but the peace officer route may not be the best. It is not a simple avenue to provide additional armed presence in a school setting, it opens up the proverbial can of worms.

The school resource officer (a term I made up for the peace officer whose responsibility it is to secure the school, not a normal patrol LEO) is walking down the hall when he/ she observes an exchange of an unidentified green leafy substance between two students behind the gym. Now what? Didn't this peace officer just observe potential criminal activity and now has a duty to investigate? A different officer is now walking rounds outside a school and observes two middle school aged students near playground equipment, during class time, and smoking cigarattes? Isn't this a combination of truancy and minor in posession? In both of these cases the LEO is bound to address the infractions. While this could be as simple as warning and releasing subjects, etc., it will certainly take away from the ability of the officer to do their assigned job- secure the school from armed whack jobs, especially if there is a detention/ arrest involved with all the ensuing paperwork chain of custody, etc.

Again, intentions being noble, people being willing to spend thousands of their own $$ and a year of their time to become certified as a peace officer is great. But we also must realize that achieving that milestone is only a beginning. Most full time officers then undergo a lengthy field training period of on the job instruction as well as take advanced and on going training (such as on how to address an active shooter) before they are vetted and allowed to patrol on their own. This just doesn't seem feasible. It would seem that the same people willing to volunteer might be better off trying to go the private security route, gaining their commissioned (armed officer) status and perhaps even personal protection officer certs, then providing SECURITY services at said schools. For those that don't feel this is enough, perhaps petitioning DPS to develop a new curriculum for this special type of security officer could be in order down the road. The cost and time requirements to the volunteers would be far less while some of the legal gray areas could be cleared up. Just a thought.
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Re: Volunteer School Defense Forces?

Postby benenglishtx » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:36 am

jmra wrote:
benenglishtx wrote:You'd get called in to the local police as "suspected pedophile loitering near children" within minutes.
I would say that depends on the size of the school and your relationship with administration and the community.
I must strongly disagree. If you actually live in some place so cohesive, so small, and with such stellar community communication channels that you can establish a relationship with not just the school administration and the community but with every single person driving every single car that might pass your position, then I truly envy you.

If the location on your profile is correct, then you are too near the DFW Metroplex for that to be the case. The complete insanity of some overprotective parents cannot be appreciated until you've experienced it. There are far too many people out there who feel that anyone who so much as glances at their kid is obviously up to no good. Irrational paranoia is the new normal for far too many parents.

An illustration? We now have an "improper photography" statute in Texas. Some guy was taking pictures of pretty girls in a public place. We're talking about fully clothed teens, here. Somebody thought that was creepy, called the police, and they couldn't do anything. You don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy when you're in public; anyone can take your picture. Pressure was put on the legislature to "do something" and they did. They hid it behind a veil of "stopping upskirting" but what they actually did was make it illegal for you to shoot pictures of others in public if your purpose is later judged unseemly.

Yes, it's thoughtcrime and anyone who values liberty should decry the way the law is written; it's ripe for abuse. My point, though, is that an hysterical attitude of "The pedophiles are out to get my precious darling!" is not just pervasive these days; it's actually so pervasive that it's been codified into law.

Let me reiterate - If your opinion is correct where you live, I think you live in such a great place I'd consider moving there. I'm envious and more power to you.

Now, to put this into the context of the thread - I'm willing to bet that just about any local effort to get volunteers to provide security at schools will get derailed as soon as the first "helicopter parent" of a "special snowflake" child stands up at a planning meeting and declares "The only men who would actually volunteer for a job like this are just looking for an excuse to get close to kids. The volunteers will probably all be pedophiles! Kill this idea now!"

Addendum - I just went back and re-read this entire thread to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding anything. I caught where you told someone to call you "ma'am" instead of "sir". That explains a lot. Generally, women aren't subject to what men have to deal with in this area. As a man, though, I can tell you that if I were to so much as smile and wave at the toddler in the child seat of the shopping cart in front of me in the checkout line at the local grocery store, a sizable chunk of the population will assume I'm a pedophile, glare at me like I just stomped a kitten to death, and pull their child out of the seat and onto their hip in a heartbeat. I look like Santa Claus, with a big white beard and giant belly to go with it. Little kids frequently look at me, smile, and wave. Most parents assess the situation correctly and just go about their business. Some, though, have gone positively ape when I returned that smile and wave; I no longer do.
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