PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton

If only one bill could pass, would you prefer it to be campus-carry or open-carry?

Poll ended at Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:56 am

Campus-Carry
129
51%
Open-Carry
122
49%
 
Total votes : 251

Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby Hector » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:17 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Jaguar wrote:I don't like this poll, seems like it is pitting open carry vs. campus carry supporters.

It's not pitting anyone against anyone else. I stated the rationale behind the poll and it has nothing to do with pitting one faction against another. (See below.)

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Anyone who has been around for even one prior Texas Legislative Session has probably read discussions about using political capital to pass or sometimes block legislation. I have previously pointed out that every time we file more than one high profile and/or controversial bill, it provides an opportunity for a Senator or Representative to vote for one and not for another, then argue, "well, I voted for your _______ bill!"

Someone who is pro gun would vote for both because it's the right thing to do. However, I get your point about legislators who are not pro gun or anti gun, and want to do as little as possible to get our support to get reelected, while playing the same game with the anti gun voters. I can see how someone like that might only vote for one pro gun bill, but add me to the list of registered voters who refuses to choose between which guns rights to restore in Texas. My choice is not an option in this poll and that's why I am not voting in this poll, but voting in the other one instead.
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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:28 pm

Hector wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Jaguar wrote:I don't like this poll, seems like it is pitting open carry vs. campus carry supporters.

It's not pitting anyone against anyone else. I stated the rationale behind the poll and it has nothing to do with pitting one faction against another. (See below.)

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Anyone who has been around for even one prior Texas Legislative Session has probably read discussions about using political capital to pass or sometimes block legislation. I have previously pointed out that every time we file more than one high profile and/or controversial bill, it provides an opportunity for a Senator or Representative to vote for one and not for another, then argue, "well, I voted for your _______ bill!"


Someone who is pro gun would vote for both because it's the right thing to do. However, I get your point about legislators who are not pro gun or anti gun, and want to do as little as possible to get our support to get reelected, while playing the same game with the anti gun voters. I can see how someone like that might only vote for one pro gun bill, but add me to the list of registered voters who refuses to choose between which guns rights to restore in Texas. My choice is not an option in this poll and that's why I am not voting in this poll, but voting in the other one instead.


So there is no misunderstanding, my point was not about "legislators who are not pro gun or anti- gun." That's your spin, not my point. I strongly suggest that you never try to put words in my mouth again.

'm talking about the reality that thousands of bills are filed every session and elected officials have more to work on besides gun issues. Passing high profile bills takes a lot of work by the bill sponsor and often it takes up the majority of their time. My poll was trying to gauge people's priorities between two high profile bills. If you can't or won't vote, that's fine, and I really don't care why.

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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:31 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
posse wrote:
jmra wrote:Poll has been open for 20 days and only 201 votes. How many members are on this forum? Is there a huge disparity between number of members and number of active members?
So what is it?

1. Members don't care about Campus Carry
2. Members don't care about Open Carry
3. Members don't care about either
4. Members are pollaphobic

A fifth possibility is some members reject the premise of throwing either part of our right to keep and bear arms under the bus. Maybe those members think both restrictions unreasonably infringe our rights, and refuse to play a game that's rigged.


What do you mean by this post?

Chas.


Still waiting for your answer. You've posted since I asked you to explain, so let's have your answer.

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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby Hector » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:41 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:My poll was trying to gauge people's priorities between two high profile bills. If you can't or won't vote, that's fine, and I really don't care why.

Chas.

I was taking part in the conversation about why so few members voted in the poll. I'm sorry if I struck a nerve.
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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby Dal686Tech » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:07 pm

Open carry recorded
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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby nonameisgood » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:44 am

Open. Because until we stop making guns our dirty little secret, people will fear them (and us as owners and carriers).

If we could come out of the closet, people would see that the "wild west" doesn't appear, the rest can follow. Also, I'm tired of baggy, untucked shirts, and long for pretty gun leather and a full size pistol, instead of sleek and petite.
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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby RPB » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:30 am

pretty gun leather and a full size pistol, left in the car, while we are forced to go defenseless in gun free zones is of little value to me.

I'd prefer two full sized Glock 26s with 18 to 21 rounds each hidden on body where they are useful if needed to pretty guns and holsters stored in a car any day.

Campuses, Elementary School when picking up sick kid at nurse's office, Courthouses which contain the DPS driver's license office and County Tax Appraiser's License plate office ..... and City's Municipal Court building with the City Secretary, Mayor's office and City Council and ... great looking expensive guns and holsters stored in cars for vehicular burglars versus being safe while wearing them concealed... tough choice

Hey mass shooter/robber, come out to my car with me ...
I'm no lawyer

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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby The Annoyed Man » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:26 pm

I find these "round and round and round" discussions where people seem to be intellectually incapable of separating principle from strategy to be extremely frustrating.

Why is it that some people refuse to see that this is merely an Internet poll? Nobody is asking respondents to actually VOTE FOR REAL. Nobody is asking respondents to GIVE UP A RIGHT. Nobody is saying CHOOSE ONE, AND WE'LL NEVER DEAL WITH THE OTHER ONE AGAIN. Nobody is saying WE CAN'T ULTIMATELY PASS BOTH.

What IS being asked is basically this: political realities being what they are, if you had to choose to tackle one of these two issues in this legislative session, with the understanding that we'll tackle the other issue in a subsequent legislative session, which would be your priority? You may have the goal of eating a hog, but you can't bite it on the butt and on the shoulder at the same time. You have to choose to pick the butt and work your way forward, or pick the shoulder and work your way back. In the end, the entire hog gets eaten, but it requires a strategy to get it done—because the hog is made up of a whole series of cuts of meat which need to be cooked in different ways to be edible. Similarly the RKBA is a simple concept, just like a hog is a simple concept, but in actual application it is very complex because we cannot deny, for instance, that LOTS of people who have no problem with gun ownership are at the same time very uncomfortable with the idea of guns in schools or being worn in the open. It doesn't matter if they're wrong.....they're still citizens who vote, and who elect representatives who represent their viewpoints, not necessarily our viewpoints.

Those who refuse to answer the poll because they refuse to consider political reality are in effect saying: "In a perfect world, the legislature would grant me all of my wishes in one fel swoop; but since this is NOT a perfect world, it would be better to refuse to participate at all than to choose to pass one first, and then to pass the other. Those who choose not to participate in a consensus usually end up getting nothing.......which is what they deserve, since they won't fight for any one part of it. They would rather not have a bite off the hog at all if they can't get the legislature to stuff the whole hog into their mouths at once.

Think of it in terms of WW2. As powerful as the allies were in their accumulated might, they did not have the resources to simultaneously land in North Africa, Italy, Sardinia, Normandy, Norway, Alaska, all the islands in the Pacific, and Japan all at one time. If they had possessed the resources at the time to do that, which I'll call "Military Capital," they would have surely done so and shortened the length of the war by at least a couple of years. But they did not have those resources. THAT WAS THE MILITARY REALITY OF THE SITUATION. so they planned their invasions and used their military capital wisely, in progression, choosing to implement one invasion now, and the other later; but in the end.....the Axis was defeated and the war was won by the Allies.

Now, let's compare that to people who won't make a choice if they can't have all of it at one time. If everybody were like them and refused to choose a legislative priority, nothing would ever happen, and they would get nothing.........except whatever benefits accrue to them on the backs of the work done by other people, which they cynically have no problem accepting for themselves. I'm willing to bet anything that those same folks who refused to participate in prioritizing for the purpose of judicious use of political capital would have no problem exercising the newly won freedoms that they had refused to prioritize. IF your thing is open carry, but you refuse to pick that over campus carry; and campus carry got passed before open carry, don't stand here and lie to the rest of us and say that you would refuse to carry a gun on campus until open carry ALSO gets passed. In fact, if you principles are indeed SO high and mighty, then you should turn in your CHL and refuse to carry a gun at all until Constitutional Carry gets passed.....because THAT is the logical extension of your position.

When you play "all or nothing" games based on principle, then the logical extension of that is a moral burden, which you place on yourself, to NOT take advantage of any gains until ALL gains are passed. High minded principle is a good thing, but lack of wisdom in its application will ultimately challenge your integrity. If you stake your personal integrity on an all or nothing approach, then your personal integrity will ALSO depend on refusing to accept any benefits won on your behalf until ALL of them have been won. Otherwise, your high and mighty principles turn out in the end to be actually subjugated to your cynicism..........which doesn't speak highly of your principles if you're not willing to stand up for them IN FULL.

In case you haven't figured it out...... Charles works actively behind the scenes on all these legislative proposals, and often has a hand in actually writing them. He also spends of a LOT of his own capital (in voluntary time and relationships built) trying to figure out which legislators can be counted on to support which bills. It ought not be a surprise to everyone here that the legislature is made up of a few people who are fervently pro-gun rights in all matters, a much larger majority who are only moderately pro-gun rights, and a small but significant group who will resist anything to do with expanding the RKBA, and will trample on the 2nd Amendment at every opportunity.

We can count on the first group pretty much 100%, and they're not the issue. You could probably get them to support all things at once......so long as it didn't interfere with their constituents' other priorities.

We can't worry about the third group too much because their opposition is a given, and we have to take that automatic opposition into account in our strategies.

But that majority middle group is where our political capital must be used wisely. The full expression of the 2nd Amendment is rich food, and if you try to force too much of it at once down their throats, they will choke on it, and ALL of it will come up and be rejected. This is political reality folks. If you're unwilling or not able to accept this as fact, then you are destined to be self-destructive of your own ends. THIS FORUM represents a very sizable group of active supporters of the RKBA, and as such, Charles has come to us with a question: NOT "if you could only have one, and never have the other;" but rather "if you had to get one passed first and then get the other passed in the next session, what would be your pick?" He would then use the results of his poll to help him determine a direction, and to help him inform the politicians whom he lobbies. If you refuse to acknowledge the political realities, do you seriously think that he's going to take that refusal back to the legislature and beat these middle-grounders over the head with it? NOT if he wants to keep those lines of communication open, he won't.

What some of you can't seem to understand is that this is about strategy, not principle. Nobody is asking you to compromise on your principles. Even so, SOME of you are saying, "I have principles, and my personal integrity allows me to only play 'all or nothing' games, so I refuse to strategize and play the 'prioritizing game' because it is violation of my principles." My answer to those of you who are doing this is, "Fine, if one or the other issue passes first despite your refusal—ON PRINCIPLE—to help Charles with that prioritizing by answer this poll, will you then maintain your personal integrity and refuse to take advantage of any gains until all have been won?"

Personally, I won't be holding my breath.

I would like to see both bills passed. In fact, I would like to see Constitutional Carry passed. But I'll be hanged if I'd rather see nothing passed because I was too politically unrealistic to make myself cowboy up and make a choice to do things in a certain strategic order.
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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby psijac » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:56 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:I would like to see both bills passed. In fact, I would like to see Constitutional Carry passed. But I'll be hanged if I'd rather see nothing passed because I was too politically unrealistic to make myself cowboy up and make a choice to do things in a certain strategic order.



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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby Heartland Patriot » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:55 pm

And why aren't you at least a guest host on conservative talk radio when those folks take their vacations? Because you certainly should be...so that eventually, you'd get your own program! :thumbs2:
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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby bigbang » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:09 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:I would like to see both bills passed. In fact, I would like to see Constitutional Carry passed. But I'll be hanged if I'd rather see nothing passed because I was too politically unrealistic to make myself cowboy up and make a choice to do things in a certain strategic order.

I agree. Open carry is legal in most states but campus carry is rare, so Texans should concentrate on open carry in 2013 and get that passed through the legislature. In the meantime, campus carry is already legal in Texas if the school gives written permission, so students and parents can demand their local school boards opt in to protect the children by allowing parents and teachers and other good people to carry on campus with a CHL.
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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby Wes » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:42 pm

Great post TAM, I enjoyed the read and definitely agree. The antis understand small wins, and we would all be naive to not appreciate the political edge they can give. I'm not sure I voted but mine would go to campus carry simply because removing any and all gun free zones is more beneficial over all. Just because you can open carry still does not get you in the door of a school. Any carry is better than no carry.
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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby AEA » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:23 pm

Open Carry (including Concealed Carry) with Legal Access to everywhere a LEO can carry WILL get you into the schools and many other currently off limits places.
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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby TexasCajun » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:56 pm

All or nothing makes it easier for the legislators who have some doubts or reservations. They'll vote for no CHL gains if that's their only 2 choices. Looking at this in terms of a progression, campus carry seems like a logical step in the right direction. That's not to say that open carry is the wrong direction. It just seems logical to me to remove as many prohibitions on concealed carry as you can before we make the lateral jump to open carry.
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Re: PolL: Open-carry v. campus-carry

Postby firsttimechl » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:43 pm

I'm new to these forums and have only posted in one topic previously, but I have something to say. I believe it's rational, intelligent, and well-considered, and I assume those qualities aren't frowned upon in a gun rights discussion, so here goes:

The drive to lift any real or habitual restriction on open carry in Texas is not a drive to secure new rights; it is not an attempt to carve out a parochial, niche allowance that benefits a fairly small minority of Texas residents. The drive to reestablish the right to open carry a handgun in Texas is a drive to declare the fundamental liberty to which Man is entitled. While I understand and appreciate the motivations, strategic or otherwise, of those who favor endorsing campus carry over open carry, I don't understand how such a relatively-inconsequential microcosm of gun rights has gained such traction among those who strive toward greater liberty for gun owners. I fear there is far too much John Boehner at work, here, and we've just seen what happens when his ilk are allowed to hold sway. Regardless, the state of Texas has a golden opportunity, particularly in these emotion-driven times, to assert the primacy of liberty on the national stage by taking an unshakable stand in favor of open carry. Such a stand would do infinitely more for the promotion of gun rights than would quibbling over something so relatively innocuous as campus concealed carry. If we are to think strategically, should we not think strategically?
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