Excaliber wrote:
My preference for strong side belt holsters is a long considered personal choice and I wouldn't criticize anyone's decision to go with a shoulder rig for any one of a number of good reasons. The back problem cited by TAM is most certainly one of those, and your own preference for this carry method combined with your very well thought out system of gun, holster, wife tailored custom concealment methods and draw stroke makes it an excellent option for you.
My own decision to carry in a shoulder holster was pretty much forced upon me because of a bad rotator cuff. If not for this…I would be carrying strong side IWB in most situations.
I have been carrying in a shoulder rig for 13 yrs. now….and discovered early on… that many of the “objections” made about them were simply untrue or easily remedied.
One quick correction to your post above: My wife has never “tailored” anything for me, in fact…I cringe at the thought she would pick up a needle and attempt to do anything with it. If you need your taxes done or your finances managed….she’s your person, but sewing…..well….that would be fun to watch.
Guys of your size are also have a lot going for them if things get physical and can more successfully manage some of the issues I called attention to through a level of raw physical power that is not in the repertoire for many of the rest of us.
At some point…physical strength and fitness become important….but the “issues” I take exception to (pinning of arm and attempted grab from front)…largely don’t exist or are easily avoided with a small amount of training. None of the techniques require extraordinary strength. Of course, if you have severe disabilities…then you are susceptible to attack no matter what your mode carry. That’s just the plain truth.
The caveats I raised come largely from experiences I had running training and qualification operations for 200 officers. Some plainclothes officers and detectives preferred shoulder holsters for either comfort (20%) or the CDI (chicks dig it) factor (80%).
My own experiences come from thousands of hours of actually wearing and using a shoulder holster. Additionally, I have done so with quite a critical eye for any weaknesses. Since I am forced to carry this way….it behooves me to make honest evaluations.
As for “CDI”…..I can only take your word for it. In the world of “ Concealed Carry” (by ordinary citizens)….I suspect it is not a factor at all…since no one is supposed to see it.
My agency allowed shoulder holsters when I took over the training division, and, after observing a number of nearly (my) heart-stopping situations involving the truly scary things people will do with them when put under a little stress during training exercises, I wrote and secured approval for a holster policy that did not allow them to be used in training or carried on duty.
And in that setting…..I consider that to be wise and appropriate decision for the following reasons:
1. Until just recently…there were no shoulder holsters with high level retention features. LEO, by the nature of their job….require a holster with a higher level of retention than do ordinary citizens.
2. Most departments are not overflowing with funds with which to train their officers. Both training equipment and techniques… have to be geared toward quickly training a person that may not have ever handled a gun before (except academy).
I made that call not because they are inherently unsafe, but because I didn't have the resources to create and carry out a good separate training curriculum for this very different method of carry, and allowing officers to use them without the same level of training we provided for strong side belt holsters was an officer safety and liability disaster waiting to happen.
Again, good judgment….but not applicable to the general public whose constraints are only their willingness to seek out good instruction (or to figure it out for themselves).
In my original post on this thread, it looks like I might not have been clear enough on some of the issues I tried to call attention to with the result that I appeared to be restating the obvious instead of contributing anything useful, so here's a follow up attempt at a bit of clarification:
1. In a strong side waistband holster, the gun is typically further away from a potential assailant than a gun carried in a shoulder holster when the shooter is in the natural stance (strong side foot somewhat to the rear of the support side foot) that most people instinctively use. If an attacker lunges from the front (as he may in a strongarm robbery attempt, and surely will if he sees your strong arm go under your coat to a bulge on your weak side), the natural reaction is to step back deeply with the strong side foot.
It is hard to say what an untrained person may do when under attack….but I will submit that simply “blading” or stepping back (usually straight back) is an antiquated defense technique. When you move…move “off-line” as much as is necessary (circumstance permitting).
This places a gun holstered on the strong side in a position further away from the adversary, and is naturally defended by clamping the strong side arm close against the body during the draw stroke while fending off the adversary with the support hand.
It moves the weapon further away from anyone in front of you, but exposes more to anyone behind you or at your flank.
When this same stepping back motion is executed by the wearer of a shoulder holster, his gun side moves very little in relation to his assailant. If he has not already drawn at this point (which he may not if he did not perceive a deadly threat before the lunge), he will find it very difficult to do so until he can somehow break contact and create enough distance to work with. Until he does so, both his gun and his body crossing gun arm remain highly vulnerable to the adversary. This is an important difference to know about.
I see that I failed to make a point in my previous post. I’ll try it again here.
No matter where you choose carry…the possibility that you might need to FIRST fend off an attack (rather than immediately go for your weapon) always exists. What is “important” to know is…. when to draw and when not to.
The support hand can be used to help defend against a frontal assault with either carry method, but in my experience it is much harder to keep the attacker away from the gun, draw it successfully, and engage with it from a shoulder holster than with a strong side waistband carry method. A few experiments with a nongun or an Airsoft pistol and a friend willing to put some gusto into playing the aggressor role will readily illustrate the dynamics involved here.
Is your “experience” with benefit of training in techniques used to fend off an attack to that region of your body (an angle 1), or simply a conclusion reached using traditional techniques geared at strong side carry? The required techniques are not special or difficult to learn, just different.
2. With a shoulder holster, the butt of your firearm carried on your weak side is in a perfect position to be drawn by someone facing you at close range from the front if he suspects it's there and your covering garment is open to the front. How does he know it's there? A gust of wind, a turn of the body that exposed a bit of leather or gun, a telltale bulge that would be out of place for anything else, or a "wardrobe malfunction" during a physical struggle. In fact, from a mechanical standpoint, he can draw it faster and more powerfully than you can because he does not have to put an arm across his body to execute the movement and his straight in / straight out move is very difficult to block.
I disagree, in fact… when the arms and hands are brought up to a “neutral position” where they should be (elbows to side, hands in front of chest), you can barely see, let alone reach in and get the weapon. You are squared to your threat (but can be bladed), and have both hands available to fight with. Too….except for the quick nature of a straight in grab…it is among the easiest to block/thwart. Circular or lateral motion will intercept straight attacks with relative ease. It the reverse that is difficult. As for being able to draw the weapon more powerfully (should he actually get his hand on it), just ask LT how this plays out in real life.
Knowing about little gotchas like this can keep one from the unhappy circumstance of learning this one the hard way in the field.
Here we agree. Recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of your chosen mode of carry is a duty.
At this point you'd be right to remind me that you're not s'posed to let somebody get that close, but life is full of surprises. Despite our best efforts, occasionally we help some of them along by our own mistakes, which we made up our minds we'd never make, but then make anyway sometimes when our guard is down. I'm still working on that perfection thing, but haven't mastered it yet.
No, actually I would be the last person to suggest that we can go through life and never let anyone get close enough to attack us. It just isn’t realistic.
The two incorrect draw methods you cited are exactly what I had in mind when I called attention to the hazard of unintentionally sweeping people, body parts, and other things that shouldn't have guns pointed at them. I didn't provide the detail, but I'm glad you did.
That is what most people envision…perhaps for good reason. But I reiterate, it is almost completely avoidable. It involves using a slightly modified draw stroke that anyone with normal articulation of the wrist can do.
Most folks who have not received really good training on proper shoulder holster draw technique often sweep themselves and other innocents during the draw, and also tend to sweep the intended target horizontally and then try to stop the muzzle in alignment with center of mass. This is really hard to do and often results in "oversweep" misses. A little bit of work with an Airsoft gun similar to the carry gun is suggested to get the correct technique down.
Agreed on every point. The draw-stroke I reference is very short, it covers no one (unless you are very close and directly behind my holster). The draw ends up with the weapon in a high ready position (already received by the support hand) and can be pushed to the target… just the same as a strong side draw. There is no sweeping or swinging, (that is wasted motion).
Even the few ranges that allow work from the holster will not allow live fire with shoulder holsters due to the number of things that can go wrong, but if one opts to carry this way it's real important to get the draw stroke, gun alignment and firing sequence refined and practiced to the point of unconscious competence. It might be just me, but there's so much different about this technique that I think it takes considerable dedicated work to get it right, even if you've got lots of experience with waistband rigs.
Yes, it is rare to find a range that will allow you to draw from a horizontal shoulder holster. That is probably a good thing….since apparently there very few people who know or teach the safe method….but the old incorrect ways continue to be propagated.
Going back and forth from shoulder carry to waistband carry is not a real good idea due to the high potential of "where is it today" confusion when you really need it.
Sage advice…applicable to all modes of carry, not the fault of Shoulder Carry. Another thing you can add is…. different platforms. I know more than a few people who are members of what I call the “gun of the month club”. I see them one month carrying a 1911, next month they’ve got some decocker, next month a revolver. Lots of potential for muscle memory to trip you up that way.
At the end of the day, strong side waistband carry, shoulder rigs, and cross draw carry all have their pluses and minuses. All are viable options, just as each presents its own unique drawbacks and challenges. My hope is that our members will benefit from our discussions here so they don't need to relearn everything we found out the hard way themselves, and can make the best choices for their own individual circumstances.
Amen.
Well said Sir.
Flint.
I typically wear a light jacket or a suit/sportcoat (rare except for work, sometimes) when I'm wearing a shoulder rig. The previous posts are right, you want the gun high so you can bring your non-draw arm against it to lock it into place while you go to draw, keeps the rig from moving.
