Former Houston police officer failed shooting qualification

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seamusTX
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Former Houston police officer failed shooting qualification

#1

Post by seamusTX »

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5213704.html

A former Houston police officer was found guilty of criminally negligent homicide in the death of a 14-year-old "special education student" in 2003. He is being sued by the boy's family. Documents introduced in the trial show that the officer failed his shooting qualification test and other tests and had numerous training problems.
Still [the boy] became nervous, frightened and belligerent when the two HPD officers questioned him, police records and witness statements show. When he tried to go home, they pulled him to the ground and tried to hold him down.

Carbonneau admitted he then deliberately drew his gun and pointed it at Escobar, who was unarmed, but later claimed the gun went off accidentally. He was allowed to resign.
Granted, it's a newspaper report, so who know?

- Jim

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#2

Post by Lucky45 »

Learned something today.
The city's own expert, Rodriguez, testified it takes about 3,000 repetitions to develop "muscle memory" in weapons handling — training that helps keep officers from accidentally firing or putting their fingers on the trigger except when absolutely necessary.

So let me go now, I have alot more reps to catch up on. 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.... :fire
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Mithras61
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#3

Post by Mithras61 »

Interesting. Jeff Cooper says about 200 reps to develop muscle memory for things like drawing properly from a holster. I don't think 3,000 repetitions is correct. On the other hand, that's only about 8.5 hours of continuous practice if you do one rep every 10 seconds...

CompVest
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#4

Post by CompVest »

I have found through personal experience and research that it can take up to 1000 reps to develop a habit and up to 2000 reps to develop muscle memory.

It depends on the person and the intricacy of the movement as to how many reps are needed.

I do think it is a shame that any police officer fails a qualification test. The tests generally are not very hard. Makes you wonder about how proficient they are with driving?

CHL/LEO
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#5

Post by CHL/LEO »

I do think it is a shame that any police officer fails a qualification test.
You'd be surprised. There are many (I repeat many) of our 3,000 plus officers that I would not want to be around if a shooting took place. They scare me enough when they're shooting at the range so I can only imagine what would happen if real pressure and stress was in place.

Every year I am stunned by the amount of officers that cannot pass our basic qualification course. Lots of times they even shoot targets on the lane next to them. Then off they go to remedial training until they can pass the course.

Now to be honest with you - I don't blame them one bit. Our department should be held responsible for this. We used to have to qualify twice a year with our handguns but in an effort to "save money" it was reduced to only once per year.

In my opinion officers should have to qualify at a minimum once per quarter. They also need to be told that if they fail a qualification for any reason that they will be suspended. As of now there is no punishment (pride or embarrassment doesn't factor into it anymore) for them if they fail. They just keeping shooting until they pass - getting to burn up free ammo because of their lack of competency. If you think about it it should be the other way around. You do well on the qualification and you get free ammo from the department. You screw up then you use your own ammo until you can pass the test.

For example, we now have about 3,200 officers on our department and every year we have a "Top Gun" competition for the top shooting officers in the department. To make the competition all you have to do is shoot a hundred on the annual qualification. Every year we're lucky to get 30 officers that can qualify for Top Gun. That's right - less than 1% make it. Now our department's fire arms qualification is more stringent than the state minimums for LEOs but still, if fire arms proficiency was important to our department there would be many more officers who could shoot better.

From talking to officers all around this state, and other parts of the US, I find that the results are pretty similar in most departments and agencies. So don't be surprised to find that LEOs are not that good at shooting. It's just a sign of the times.
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DMG
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#6

Post by DMG »

CHL/LEO:

How difficult is it to score a 100 on the qualification? What is involved in the qualification, i.e., how many shots at what distances, strong/weak hand, is time a factor, shoot from drawing or low ready, etc.?

David G.

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#7

Post by jazr45acp »

I agree with you 100%. I saw it first hand at my range this past weekend.
In Christ,

Joel C.

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#8

Post by CompVest »

CHL/LEO,

That is shameful. I would like to see a requirement for all departments to pay for IDPA memberships for their officers and then require that they shoot at least three sanctioned matches a year. The officers would learn good safe gun handling skills and learn to shoot better.

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#9

Post by CHL/LEO »

CHL/LEO:

How difficult is it to score a 100 on the qualification? What is involved in the qualification, i.e., how many shots at what distances, strong/weak hand, is time a factor, shoot from drawing or low ready, etc.?

David G.
I've posted it below. The 25 yard portion of the qual is what pretty well wipes everyone out from making a hundred. If people would practice it on a regular basis throughout the year they wouldn't have a problem.

Every year at qualifications we have people show up that have not had their guns out of their holster since the previous years qualification. Quite a few of them can't even complete the qual course because their weapons seize up due to a lack of maintenance (gun is dry - no oil). Twenty years ago we used to have inspections during detail where your Sgt would check your weapon and holster but not anymore. Most Sgts today wouldn't even know what to inspect if they were told to do it.

As screwed up as this part of our firearms training is we have one of the best Patrol Rifle courses of any LE agency in the US. It's totally voluntary - no one is forced to carry a Patrol Rifle - you have to want to. It is a very strict, no nonsense class run by some very good instructors. It's a one week course and if you show up late, complain, have an attitude, etc. - then you're kicked out. One guy was complaining about the rainy weather and having to lay in the mud - he was told to hit the door and don't come back.

If you cross fire onto another target you're out. If you can't shoot a decent size group by day three you're out. If you don't make it to the 5 AM night fire portion of the class on time - you're out. On the final day of qualification if you have one shot out of the silhouette - you're gone. Lot's of pressure during the entire course and they actually try to get you to "ring the bell" per se and quit if you're not up to it. After that you have to shoot a qualification every month and every six months you have to go through additional range and classroom training. Fail either of those and you're out of the program. They are very serious about the Patrol Rifle Training.

They know that one bad shooting with a Patrol Rifle and that could very well end the program for everyone in the department. I wish they did the same with all of our firearms training but we would probably loose so many officers that it would be politically unacceptable - especially since we're already short about 800 officers as it is.

Dallas Police Department Firearms Training Center
Standard Pistol Qualification Course - Rev 8-27-96

Minimum Passing Score - Primary and Secondary Weapons: 80%
On a “hot range,� after the initial command to load is given it is the officer’s responsibility to keep their weapon loaded. Ensure that your weapon is loaded prior to holstering at the end of each stage of fire. You may not unholster to load your weapon. There are no alibis. The qualification course is a series of five stages that test basic marksmanship skills. Officers will not receive credit for rounds improperly fired. Rounds cannot be made up. All shots will be fired on the DPD Model TQ15 paper target.

1. Drill - Holster
Distance - 25 Yard line
5 Rounds
1 target turn
Time - 15 seconds
Shooter is positioned to the rear of the barricade at the 25-yard line. Shooters may use either side of the barricade and may use the barricade for support. When the targets face, the shooter draws from a snapped holster and fires 5 rounds at their target. When the target edges, the shooter must fix their weapon the way they want it and holster.

2. Drill - Holster
Distance - 15 Yard Line
5 Rounds
1 target turn
Time - 10 Seconds
Shooter is positioned at the front edge of the sidewalk at the 15-yard line. When the targets face, the shooter will draw from a snapped holster and fire 5 rounds into their target. When the target edges, the shooter must fix their weapon the way they want it and holster.

3. Drill - Challenge
Distance - 7 Yard Line
15 Rounds
3 target turns
Time/Turn - 8 seconds
Shooter is positioned at the front edge of the sidewalk at the 7-yard line. When the targets face, the shooter will draw from a snapped holster and fire 5 rounds into their target. When the targets edge the shooter will fix their weapon the way they want it and remain at scan. Repeat two more times. Once complete the shooter will fix their weapon the way they want it and holster.

4. Drill - One-Handed
Distance - 3 Yard Line
10 Rounds
2 target turns
Time/Turn - 8 seconds
Shooter is positioned at the 3-yard line. When the targets face, the shooter will draw from a snapped holster and fire 5 rounds into their target using their strong hand only. When the targets edge, shooter must decock strong hand only. The shooter will fix their weapon the way they want it then transfer their weapon to the off-hand. The shooter will assume an off-hand only scan position. When the targets face the shooter will 5 rounds into their target using the off hand only. When the targets edge, the shooter will decock using the off-hand only then transfer the weapon to the strong hand. The shooter will fix the weapon the way they want it and holster.

5. Drill - Time Reload
Distance - 7 Yard Line
15 Rounds
1 target turn
Time - 25 seconds
Semi-Automatic: Load 4 rounds in a magazine and place that magazine in your weapon (4+1 in chamber makes 5). Load the other two magazines with 5 rounds each and place them in closed magazine pouches.
Revolver: The weapon is loaded with six rounds. Load your two speed-loaders with six rounds each and place them in a closed carrier.
Shooter is positioned at the 7-yard line. When the targets face, the shooter draws from a snapped holster and fires 5 rounds at their target, completes a combat load and fires 5 rounds at their target, completes a combat load and fires 5 rounds at their target. Saved rounds cannot be fired during this stage or any other stage.
The tower officer will instruct the shooters to visually and physically check their weapons for empty, lock the slide back on semi-automatics and holster an empty weapon with no magazine in the weapon.
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ELB
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#10

Post by ELB »

I find CHL/LEO's comments interesting, if disturbing. I've been to some private training courses (e.g. John Farnam) that have also had police officers in them, often instructors. They say the same thing about their departments - hard to get officers to practice, lots of failures at qualification time. One rifle course that was led/instructed by a police officer, he had us shoot his department's pistol qual just for fun. It was not difficult, but he said his department still had a high failure rate, more than 20% if I recall correctly.

Not a happy situation.

elb

57Coastie

Escobar shooting lawsuit settled

#11

Post by 57Coastie »

An update on this thread.

The Houston Chronicle this morning reports a $1.5 million payout by the city of Houston for the shooting of the unarmed teenager, Eli Escobar, by a Houston police officer, in settlement of his family's 2004 civil-rights lawsuit. The settlement by the city includes the $1.5 million payment, legal fees, a condolence letter from the Mayor of Houston to the parents, a plaque on city property honoring the young man's life, and a commitment to change gun handling training and expand crisis intervention training for all Houston Police Department officers.

Houston's new so-called "Escobar Rule" establishes the new HPD policies:

-- Officer must identify an "articulable threat of deadly force,"
-- Officer must have sight of weapon on the threat,
-- Officer must be protecting self or another person from an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury,
-- Officer must have made a conscious decision to fire before placing finger on trigger, and
-- Officer must, if possible, reholster weapon before physically restraining a person.

Another long-time CHL holder just observed to me that this new emphasis by the HPD on "when not to shoot," expressed in the first four "Escobar Rules," rather than on "when to shoot," so often the subject of discussions on this forum, might be constructively followed by CHL holders.

Jim

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Re:

#12

Post by pedalman »

CHL/LEO wrote: From talking to officers all around this state, and other parts of the US, I find that the results are pretty similar in most departments and agencies. So don't be surprised to find that LEOs are not that good at shooting. It's just a sign of the times.
This would explain a remark a friend made to me. In his line of work, he interacts with LEOs and game wardens. When I took my new Glock out to his property to try it out, he was watching me and said, "Wow! You out-shoot most of the cops I know. I don't want to get into a pistol fight with you." Not to toot my own horn, but I was having a very good shooting day. Also, I do have some previous shooting experience (long-range handgun metallic silhouette, iron sights only).

I would not argue against the observation that budget cuts affect the amount of training and practice that LEOs receive. But, I also have a personal theory. My impression is that many LEOs are not gun/shooting enthusiasts. I would daresay that many only carry a service pistol/revolver because it is part of their required equipment.

A lot of civilian firearm owners are into shooting. We tend to go above and beyond the bare minimum to be proficient with our weapons. (OK, there are always a few exceptions :roll: )

This makes holding a CHL even more incumbent upon all of us. We are the deciding factor in whether we go home to our families safely, or not.
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jbirds1210
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Re:

#13

Post by jbirds1210 »

CompVest wrote:CHL/LEO,

That is shameful. I would like to see a requirement for all departments to pay for IDPA memberships for their officers and then require that they shoot at least three sanctioned matches a year. The officers would learn good safe gun handling skills and learn to shoot better.
Please......rally for this and increase that number to 30! :biggrinjester:

On a serious note, I agree with you 100%....IDPA is a great way to add in a little stress (especially if your friends are there to cheer or laugh at you).

Jason
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Re: Escobar shooting lawsuit settled

#14

Post by boomerang »

57Coastie wrote:Another long-time CHL holder just observed to me that this new emphasis by the HPD on "when not to shoot," expressed in the first four "Escobar Rules," rather than on "when to shoot," so often the subject of discussions on this forum, might be constructively followed by CHL holders.
Why? Following those rules won't get me a free pass from an overzealous DA and it won't increase my SB378 immunity from civil liability.

Here are two rules I follow instead.
1. never point the muzzle at anything you're not willing to destroy.
2. keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to destroy it.
"Ees gun! Ees not safe!"
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