First LEO contact - disarmed and unloaded

[srothstein]

I thought I heard somewhere that there is no crime of "Possession of stolen property" in Texas. If you come into possession of stolen property and it wasn't unreasonable to believe it was not stolen there is no crime. If you are aware it is stolen then you are as guilty as the one that stole it. Guns are not any different than any other property.

The crime of possession of stolen property was part of the list merged into theft several years ago. You are committing theft if you are in possession of stolen property AND know it was stolen. If you did not know it was stolen, then you are not committing a crime. But, if you are in possession of stolen property, it helps to prove you did not know it was stolen if you can show the officer how you came into possession. This is why I was suggesting a receipt.

And even if you are not committing the crime, you still lose the stolen property, which is supposed to go back to its original owner.

[HerbM]

Fascinating thread. Do CHLs have to inform the officer that they are carrying? What if a CHL (as you say: calmy and courteously) refused to allow the LEO to disarm him? Hmm. Probably not a very good idea, on reflexion.

Two questions here -- that I haven't seen answered or address much in this thread:

First "requirement to inform": The law says that IF I am armed legally I must show the CHL when asked for ID by an officer. It does NOT say that I must inform him that I am armed nor that I am prohibited from showing the CHL when not armed.

Second: the law also says the officer can disarm me when it is necessary for safety. (Officer's judgment mostly.)

So, by the letter of the law, I don't have to inform, but he can choose to search me and disarm me. He might later have to justify that search and that disarmament, but he can do it.

The law says also that I cannot resist an ARREST merely because it is unlawful -- submit and sort it out later in court or administrative review of the officer's actions.

The law does allow me to resist when excessive force is being used to arrest me. This latter is not going to be easy to prove in court so you better be right and lucky and have a good lawyer. Similar issues prevail when the officer is himself engaged in criminal activity, such as rape, robbery, etc. And similar problems proving it, but these things do happen often enough to be actually interesting (KeepAndBearArms.com has some such article several times each day normally.)

[KC5AV]

Two questions here -- that I haven't seen answered or address much in this thread:

First "requirement to inform": The law says that IF I am armed legally I must show the CHL when asked for ID by an officer. It does NOT say that I must inform him that I am armed nor that I am prohibited from showing the CHL when not armed.

Correct. You must show the CHL when an officer asks you for ID, and you are armed. If you are not armed, you are under no obligation to show the CHL if you are not armed.
There are some who think it's a good idea to go ahead and show the officer your CHL, even if you are not armed, since:

• They will find out you have a CHL when they run your license
• Some officers are under the mistaken impression that you are required to show it no matter what (avoid potential conflict when they jump you for not providing the license, etc)
• It might get you some slack with the officer, since you're a 'good guy

[KD5NRH]

Given the way he disarmed me, I wonder what he would have done if I would have been using something like a smartcarry holster??? That could have made things very interesting.

"A little to the left...lower...aren't ya gonna kiss me first, officer?"

[kw5kw]

The trooper simply ran the serial number on the gun to make sure it wasn't stolen, just as KBCraig said. (It's actually quite common.) And, if you did not purchase the gun new in the box from a licensed dealer, did you have someone run the serial number to make sure that it wasn't stolen years ago?

Always have a used gun's serial number ran before you purchase it. Troop's just doin' his job.

Russ

How do you run the serial number? Thanks.

Any LEO can run the serial number for you. I was looking at some weapons at a local pawn shop a few months back. I wrote down the model and serial numbers on each weapon that I was interest in. I then found a local FWPD officer setting in a parking lot; I pulled up to him and started to chat with him for a moment, so that he knew that there was no emergency involved and then asked him if he'd run a few serial numbers on guns that I was thinking about purchasing. He said: "Sure,..." and then added "... I wish more people would think of things as this before they find out that something is actually stolen... It would sure help prevent a lot of trouble later."

He picked up the mike and called dispatch to run the traffic (QG -query gun). They all came up no-29 (not stolen).

I thanked him and drove back to the pawn shop and got the one I liked the best.



Russ

[cxm]

We need to consider what the law says here...

First, it does not give LEOs blanket authority to disarm CHL holders... the officer must have "reasonable" belief that it is necessary for the reasons stated in the law... and it does NOT authorize a blanked policy of disarming everyone... an officer who says he disarms everyone is violating the law.

That said, arguing with a cop on the street isn't a good idea...go along and deal with the issue afterward.

We need to keep in mind LEOs must obey the law too. There is nothing wrong with politely asking after the official contact with the officer ends why he disarmed you... if the reason is something like "because I can" you should make a complaint with the chief of the department involved... a formal complaint probably isn't requried, simply a letter to the Chief/Director etc. about the issue.

If we don't know our rights, we can't defend them, and if we don't defend them you will surely lose them.

FWIW

Chuck

...where a simple traffic stop should result in a LEO disarming a CHL holder.

Maybe like a previous member posted - it wasn't a simple traffic stop. We'll never know unless dwsUSA were to contact the Trooper (name and badge number should be on the warning ticket he received) and just ask him why he was disarmed? Unless that happens it's all supposition. Like I mentioned, I've never disarmed anyone unless they were getting arrested.

I personally know of two fellow officers I work with who have been disarmed by DPS Troopers during traffic stops. The troopers knew they were LEOs and still asked them to hand over their guns. When asked why the comment from one trooper was, "because I can" and the other one stated that he disarms everyone he stops including LEOs. He said that the doesn't ever want anyone saying he's a racist or treats certain people different than others. I can at least understand his point of view even though I don't agree with it. The other trooper and his comments are what gives all LEOs a bad name. Just like someone previously posted - just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.