Oops..

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Oops..

Postby ffemt300 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:51 pm

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Re: Oops..

Postby RPB » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:36 pm

ffemt300 wrote:http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/Deputies-shoot-kill-man-after-knocking-on-wrong-door/-/11788162/15527202/-/euk6tg/-/index.html



I don't usually click on links in forums (or e-mails) that have no explanation of what it goes to...and others who are security minded think likewise

but after I click quote I see that that links says


Deputies-shoot-kill-man-after-knocking-on-wrong-door

so I assume that's what the "oops" means.

A bit of text would be friendlier to those of us reluctant to click the unknown ;-)

From story at above link:
LAKE COUNTY, Fla. -

Lake County Sheriff's Office deputies shot and killed a man they assumed was an attempted murder suspect on Sunday, but they now know they shot the wrong man.

Officials said the deputies did not identify themselves because of safety reasons.

"When we knocked on the door, the door opened and the occupant of that apartment was pointing a gun at deputies, and that's when we opened fire and killed him," Lt. John Herrell said. "Even though this subject is not the one we were looking for when he opened the door. He was pointing the gun at the deputy and if you put yourselves in the deputy's shoes. They were there to pick up someone who was wanted for an attempted homicide."
Last edited by RPB on Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oops..

Postby C-dub » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:40 pm

Officials said the deputies did not identify themselves because of safety reasons.


Oh good. I'm glad everyone is safe. :shock:

Note to all BGs. Park your vehicle in front of someone else's home so the police will think that's where you live. No need to look up anyone's address. :banghead:

The innocent guy didn't know who was knocking on his door at 0130, but did know his neighborhood. If someone's trying to enter my home or knocking on my door at 0130 there just might be a gun pointed at them too.
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Re: Oops..

Postby The Annoyed Man » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting the article:
In the early-morning hours, deputies knocked on 26-year-old Andrew Lee Scott's door without identifying themselves as law enforcement officers. Scott answered the door with a gun in his hand.

"When we knocked on the door, the door opened and the occupant of that apartment was pointing a gun at deputies, and that's when we opened fire and killed him," Lt. John Herrell said. "Even though this subject is not the one we were looking for when he opened the door. He was pointing the gun at the deputy and if you put yourselves in the deputy's shoes. They were there to pick up someone who was wanted for an attempted homicide."

{snip}

"It's just a bizarre set of circumstances. The bottom line is, you point a gun at a deputy sheriff or police office, you're going to get shot," Herrell said.

What is truly remarkable is the complete lack of remorse, and the fact that he makes sound like the dead man did something wrong by answering an unidentified knock in the middle of the night with a gun in his hand. It would have been smart to ask who was at the door, but still... To suggest that it is all his fault? That's just inexcusable.
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Re: Oops..

Postby ffemt300 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:02 pm

RPB, thanks for the tip. I'm a dummy when it comes to forum etiquette. :banghead:
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Re: Oops..

Postby Jumping Frog » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:45 pm

His tactical error was opening the door and pointing a gun at a police officer. He shouldn't have opened the door, but demanded to know why they were knocking first.
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Re: Oops..

Postby 74novaman » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:48 pm

C-dub wrote:
The innocent guy didn't know who was knocking on his door at 0130, but did know his neighborhood. If someone's trying to enter my home or knocking on my door at 0130 there just might be a gun pointed at them too.


:iagree:

The guy made a mistake just opening the door at 1:30, gun or not. Anyone wants in my house at that hour, they're going to have to break it down. THEN they get to see the gun.

I guess at least this wasn't a "no knock" raid....though I'm not sure a "knock but don't bother to identify" policy is any better. :???:
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Re: Oops..

Postby jimlongley » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:46 pm

Goes right along with the idiot in the other thread - "Nobody was going to get hurt."
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Re: Oops..

Postby C-dub » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:46 am

74novaman wrote:
C-dub wrote:
The innocent guy didn't know who was knocking on his door at 0130, but did know his neighborhood. If someone's trying to enter my home or knocking on my door at 0130 there just might be a gun pointed at them too.


:iagree:

The guy made a mistake just opening the door at 1:30, gun or not. Anyone wants in my house at that hour, they're going to have to break it down. THEN they get to see the gun.

I guess at least this wasn't a "no knock" raid....though I'm not sure a "knock but don't bother to identify" policy is any better. :???:

Yeah, I'm rethinking my strategy. It's very difficult to nearly impossible to force my front door open. It's locked and dead bolted and braced from the inside with a 2x4. Someone will pretty much have to break the door or the hinges. I will probably just have the wife on the phone with the police, while I wait down the hallway around the corner for cover with my rifle.

I also currently do not have any video on the front porch or anywhere on the property and am rethinking that.
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Re: Oops..

Postby txhighlander » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:54 am

Even a no knock raid they identify them selves when they go thru the door. I am afraid that as times digress we will see more and more of this. :nono:
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Re: Oops..

Postby chasfm11 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:06 am

I fully understand that officers remember situations like this one.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/dallas-police-officer-reportedly-shot.html

At the same time, there has to be a way to help prevent the wrong people being targeted under these kinds of circumstances. I'd certainly want to verify that the people on the other side of my door were police at 2am. The chances are a lot better that the real police have the wrong house than that a group of BGs have gotten police uniforms and targeted my place but being woken from a sound sleep with only seconds to figure everything out is a tall order for older guys like me. My reflex action isn't to open the door, however.
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Re: Oops..

Postby Purplehood » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:17 am

ffemt300 wrote:RPB, thanks for the tip. I'm a dummy when it comes to forum etiquette. :banghead:


You can edit your original post and add some text...
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Re: Oops..

Postby The Annoyed Man » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:19 am

chasfm11 wrote:I fully understand that officers remember situations like this one.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/dallas-police-officer-reportedly-shot.html

At the same time, there has to be a way to help prevent the wrong people being targeted under these kinds of circumstances. I'd certainly want to verify that the people on the other side of my door were police at 2am. The chances are a lot better that the real police have the wrong house than that a group of BGs have gotten police uniforms and targeted my place but being woken from a sound sleep with only seconds to figure everything out is a tall order for older guys like me. My reflex action isn't to open the door, however.

Here's the deal, as far as I'm concerned. My house has a wood plaque with brass numbers nailed to it indicating the address, mounted just above and to the right of the front door. There is a black box painted on the curb with my address number in contrasting white painted over it, at TWO locations—right in front of the front walkway leading up to my front door, and at the corner of the curb where my driveway exits. You would have to be a complete imbecile to NOT know that you were at the wrong house. If police were looking for my neighbors—neither of whose homes look anything like mine, by the way—and they shot me for answering a middle of the night knock with a gun in my hand, I think I would own them. I would own the PD. I would own the city. I think that a good lawyer could make that happen, because we still have a second amendment—despite the efforts of traitors among us—and I have a natural God-given right to defend my home, my family, and myself from a middle of the night raid by anybody hostile to my interests, so long as I have committed no crimes.

Now, is it tactically wise to confirm who's at the door and why before deciding whether or not to open it? Yes, it absolutely is. But in another thread running to many pages now, we have people arguing that when George Zimmerman got out of his car, he assumed responsibility for the outcome of Martin's death. Other's have argued—incorrectly—that when he ignored the 911 operator's request to not follow Martin, he broke the law. The correct answer is, of course, in hindsight, getting out of his car was a tactical error............but it was NOT ILLEGAL. He broke no laws by doing so.

I maintain that if the state (or local municipality) "licenses you to kill" by paying you to carry a gun, both for your own protection, the protection of others (which turns out to be a Constitutional fiction, per SCOTUS), and for the apprehension of dangerous criminals, then you have a sort of fiduciary responsibility—JUST like some have argued that George Zimmerman did—to be certain that you are in the right place for this.

I am personally very tired of reading stories about cops who think that their tactics are beyond question, and when it blows up in their faces and they kill an innocent homeowner or his dog, they place the blame on the victim. It's immoral. When their superiors do it, it's doubly so.

I want to see our communities support our police. I want there to be good rapport between the two, and cooperation. Amendment IV of the Bill of Rights says "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED [similar language to SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED], and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Amendment IV does not state that the homeowner must make tactically sound decisions for the amendment to be in effect. It does not require that he be the brightest bulb in the circuit. The language places the onus upon law enforcement, stating without any qualification or purpose of evasion (just as with the 2nd Amendment) that this right SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED.

Frankly, I don't care if the victim answered the door with a gun in his hand. He was defending his castle.

Some are going to be very offended by my next statement, but if I have to choose between a cop who acted like an idiot by not confirming the address and got killed by a homeowner defending his home, and a homeowner getting killed for answering an unannounced knock on the door in the middle of the night with a gun in his hand—tactically sound or not—I'm going to go with dead cop and live homeowner every single time. A police officer has the same right to life that I do, but he does not have MORE of a right to life than I do. If he is stupid, it should cost HIM, not ME. I don't want to see either person hurt or killed, but if injury or death is the result of someone's stupidity and failure of procedural duty, then I want the person who initiated the stupidity to pay the price, not the person who is confronted by the other's stupidity—even if he could have made a more tactically sound decision, again, because the 4th Amendment doesn't require sound tactics. It requires law enforcement to meet a standard which was NOT met in this case. Therefore, THEY are responsible for the outcome, and the moral weight of it all rests on their shoulders. So when an unmitigated mutt like that officer's superior makes excuses and tries to shift the blame to the homeowner, I would like to see that superior's private parts crushed in a mangle. Why? Because it is HIS attitude which institutionalizes this kind of fecklessness with regard to a sworn police officer's oath to uphold the law.

And make no mistake, these kinds of errors are entirely preventable, thus they are stupid. Furthermore, they are the direct result of law enforcement encroaching on the very clearly stated words and meaning of the 4th Amendment.............JUST like the current state of our gun rights in America is the result of liberals encroaching on the very clearly stated words and meaning of the 2nd Amendment.

So I hope that the dead man's family prevails in court, making it so expensive for this police department that they will never pull this kind of crap again. Maybe it will force them to reconsider their commitment to the social contract they made when they agreed to accept employment as police officers. Maybe some officers will decide that they cannot make that commitment, and leave the department. Good. We don't want cops like that. Maybe it will make others decide to rededicate themselves to the principles of good police work, attention to procedure and detail, and adherence to the ideals of good law enforcement. Good. We DO want cops like that.

I WANT successful law enforcement. Our communities require it. Despite this rant, I do NOT have it in for the police. But when cops get away with gunning down innocent people, when they act with contempt for the rights of the people as enumerated in the Constitution, then they have nobody but themselves to blame when the communities they police begin to treat them with contempt in return. That officer's superior did as much or more damage to the cause of community relations as the officer himself did.

A simple, "Yes, it is a terrible situation, and we are trying to sort out what happened and why. When we have more details, I will provide them." That's all the press needed to hear from him, and that's all they had any right to expect. They do not need to hear his opinion—which may be prejudicial to future jury panelists—about his officer's alleged innocence and the homeowner's guilt.

Other than that, I have no opinion.
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Re: Oops..

Postby StewNTexas » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:41 am

TAM's post above is as usual, on the mark.

His well thought out comments are the reason that when I see any post that he has made, I make it a point to read it.

Thanks for your well thought out comments.
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Re: Oops..

Postby danpaw » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:50 am

Well, they did find some drugs in the apartment and the dead guy did have a gun. That was convenient.
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