Homeowner had 'a right to resist'

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Agree with the Judge's Ruling?

Yes
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No
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Total votes: 62


srothstein
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#16

Post by srothstein »

stevie_d_64 wrote:
txinvestigator wrote:(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace
officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use
greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
Who would (or could) this be??? (person acting at his direction)???
Believe it or not, in Texas, any peace can call for a posse if necessary.

Just so you are all aware of it, the Code of Criminal Procedure says:

Art. 2.14. MAY SUMMON AID. Whenever a peace
officer meets with resistance in discharging any duty imposed upon
him by law, he shall summon a sufficient number of citizens of his
county to overcome the resistance; and all persons summoned are
bound to obey.

Acts 1965, 59th Leg., vol. 2, p. 317, ch. 722, eff. Jan. 1, 1966.


Art. 2.15. PERSON REFUSING TO AID. The peace
officer who has summoned any person to assist him in performing any
duty shall report such person, if he refuse to obey, to the proper
district or county attorney, in order that he may be prosecuted for
the offense.

Acts 1965, 59th Leg., vol. 2, p. 317, ch. 722, eff. Jan. 1, 1966.
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nitrogen
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#17

Post by nitrogen »

stevie_d_64 wrote:
I would summize that a situation like this would have to be a serious breakdown in procedures on the LEO's part, per the law in this state...Not that I believe this happens all the time, rather I don't think I have ever heard of a successful resistance to arrest in this state before...

Other things have played into the situation by then, and it'd be no use in even filing a counter to an LEO's action, whether it was legal or not...

I know...I'm giving you a headache...Yer welcome! :lol:
As my CHL instructor said to us, (and I think it wraps it up) You have to submit to the police, but you don't have to let them beat you up.
Granted, there's a lot of fuzziness in that, but as reasonable people, I think we know the difference.
.השואה... לעולם לא עוד
Holocaust... Never Again.
Some people create their own storms and get upset when it rains.
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stevie_d_64
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#18

Post by stevie_d_64 »

CHL/LEO wrote:
My personal take was that I believe a big majority of Law Enforcement officers in this state would not have pushed the envelop back as far as they did in Florida in the same situation, serving civil papers...
Trust me - this (illegal searches/arrests) happens every day here in Texas. Most citizens have no clue as to what their rights are in regards to arrests, searches, and seizures. You also aren't going to find too many people that are going to fight with the police during these type of situations so it never makes the news. I can pretty well assure you that this fellow hadn't a clue as to what these LEOs could have legally done - as the story said, he saw his wife struggling with two deputies and went to her aid.

I am not condoning what these deputies did but Mr. Coffin is lucky he did not end up in a coffin. If someone "takes" either my or my partner's Taser, impact weapon, OC spray, or gun away they "might" get shot. If they start "using" one of those weapons against us then they "probably will" get shot. Also, what if some other LEOs showed up at the scene and saw this situation going on. Do you think they're going to stop and ask questions regarding exactly what the facts are? Nope, they're going to see two other LEOs getting attacked with a weapon and very well could use deadly force. Again Mr. Coffin is very lucky he wasn't shot.

Like several other people have posted on here, don't fight the police. If something was done improperly or illegally, sort it out later.
Exactly!
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
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CHL/LEO
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#19

Post by CHL/LEO »

flintknapper posted:
The whole thing was entirely unnecessary IMO.
Based upon the facts laid out in the story I agree 100%.
...fairly severe rotator cuff problem... If for some reason....an officer were to arrest/detain/control me, and I informed him of this condition beforehand, can you imagine that "some" might choose to disregard that info and place me in a position where I would incur injury from having my arm put behind my back.
I'm sure that some would, but one would have to look at the totality of the circumstances of the arrests.

I'm going to give you a couple of scenarios:

1. you forgot to pay a ticket and a warrant was issued for your arrest. Officer tells you these facts and informs you that he is going to place you under arrest and transport you to jail. In a very polite manner you should immediately tell him about your injury. Tell him that you don't want to be difficult but at the same time you don't want to further aggravate your injury. In my department I have the option of handcuffing an arrestee in the front if need be. The only way I would ever do that if it was due to some type of medical condition. Another option is that I could link several sets of handcuffs together and still cuff you behind your back. Due to the extra length your arm would probably not extend past your centerline. The bottom line is that if you told an officer about some type of pre-existing medical condition and they chose to ignore it and/or make reasonable accommodations for it, their department could be held liable for any additional injuries that you incurred.

2. you are at the annual Friday night Texas/OU rally in downtown Dallas. You and your group of friends are extremely drunk (you meet all the definitions of Public Intoxication as you are a danger to both yourself and others) and proceed to get into a fight with a large group of University of Texas fans. As a large group of Dallas Police officers attempt to arrest you and your friends you proceed to hit one of the officers in the head with a beer bottle. Luckily for the officer (and you) he is wearing a riot helmet and sustains no injuries. However, you are immediately piled upon and driven to the ground by about four or five officers. In your drunken state you continue to fight with the officers and resist arrest. As your arms are pulled behind your back so that you can be handcuffed you start screaming something about how your shoulder hurts. At the same time you are trying to bite one of the officers who is holding your head down. At this point no one is going to take the time to determine what your shoulder issues are. They are only focused in getting you restrained so that you no longer are a threat to the officers, the public, and in reality to yourself. If your rotator cuff gets torn, or you just suffer a lot of pain that really is your problem due to your actions. Oh, in case you think this is an extreme example that I just made up - nope, really happened and I was there to participate. In fact, this is just a normal occurrence during this event. The individual was not even charged with Disorderly Conduct or Assault. We just P.I.d him and took him to the Paddy Wagon. He got off real easy that evening.
I can see this happening if Joe Citizen runs into the occasional LE that is a bit "badge heavy". And please don't tell me they do not exist, I ran into one about 30 yrs.
They still exist today and that will never change.
Anyway, I appreciate your participation, your viewpoints, and your willingness to take a little heat in order to share with us your perspectives.
Glad to be able to do so. The better the general public understands the position of LE the safer it should be for all concerned. Plus, if I can't take "a little heat" then I'm in the wrong profession. :smile:
"Conflict is inevitable; Combat is an option."

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flintknapper
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#20

Post by flintknapper »

The better the general public understands the position of LE the safer it should be for all concerned.


And "Vice Versa".




Both scenarios make perfect sense to me and I have no argument about either.



Thanks,

Flint.
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phddan
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#21

Post by phddan »

Trust me - this (illegal searches/arrests) happens every day here in Texas
That absolutely floors me that you would admit to this. And then, turn around and say,
Like several other people have posted on here, don't fight the police. If something was done improperly or illegally, sort it out later
You freely admitted that you are aware of leo's that commit crimes every day and then say to take it like sheep.

Just curious, how many of these outlaw leo's have you filed charges on?

Dan

txinvestigator
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#22

Post by txinvestigator »

phddan wrote:
Trust me - this (illegal searches/arrests) happens every day here in Texas
That absolutely floors me that you would admit to this. And then, turn around and say,
Like several other people have posted on here, don't fight the police. If something was done improperly or illegally, sort it out later
You freely admitted that you are aware of leo's that commit crimes every day and then say to take it like sheep.

Just curious, how many of these outlaw leo's have you filed charges on?

Dan
Illegal searchs are not crimes, they simply disallow evidence from being admitted to court.

He never said to take it like a sheep. The law does not allow you to fight it on the street. Your fight is in court.

NIce try though. :roll:
*CHL Instructor*


"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan

Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.

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CHL/LEO
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#23

Post by CHL/LEO »

Dan - Illegal (unlawful/unconstitutional) searches happen all the time in Texas and throughout the US. Most anytime you read about a drug conviction that is thrown out, or overturned on appeal, it is due to the fact that evidence was seized illegally. Once that evidence is not allowed to be introduced into court that is usually the end of the case. Charges are dismissed and the citizen is allowed to go free.

Just like there is a tremendous amount of leeway given to LEOs in Texas regarding whether we choose to arrest someone regarding a crime, there is a similar amount of leeway provided regarding LEOs that violate arrest, search, and seizure laws. Not only does it protect them it also protects their agency and governing body (city, county, or state). They would have to had shown an intentional disregard for the law by knowing what they did was illegal yet chose to do it anyway. Or, perhaps a repeat occurrence of the same act.

Just like the news story that started this thread - an officer's actions can be deemed wrong yet they weren't arrested or charged with anything. Now if they were to go out and repeat this exact same act again that would probably be a different story since they would have known their actions were wrong. Side note: I'm sure the state will appeal this judges ruling in the matter. Even if they don't this ruling will not be considered "case law" and thus held up as a legal guideline. Case Law is based upon a ruling from an appeal court.

Not sure about your comment regarding "taking it like sheep". My interpretation of that would be if one just rolled over and never stood up for what they believed was an injustice. That's not what I wrote and surely not what I meant. If one believes that they received a traffic ticket, parking fine, code violation, or some other type of citation that they didn't deserve, then by all means "fight it in court". If someone believes that they were wrongly arrested then by all means "fight it in court". I don't recommend that you fight it with the officer that is issuing the citation or arresting you. You will have a whole new set of problems to deal with.

Regarding your last comment - most every department or agency has Internal Affairs detectives that will investigate whether policy or procedures have been violated. Our department has a Public Integrity Unit that investigates criminal violations by any city employee. Our District Attorney's office also has a Public Integrity unit that investigates and prosecutes criminal violations by any governmental employee located within that county. The AG's office can assign special prosecutors to investigate criminal matters. The FBI and US Attorney will also investigate and prosecute criminal activity. The bottom line is that there are plenty of checks and balances to oversee the behavior of LEOs.

Now the most important one is the fellow LEOs that work with what some might refer to as "bad apples". Let me assure you that most LEOs don't want to work around, with, or anywhere near these types of individuals. They understand that the actions of one of these people could smear the good name and hard work of all the other officers on the department. These people usually quit, are run off, or end up hanging themselves by their actions. LEOs are human beings and as such are not perfect and will make mistakes. There are always going to be issues but at least there are systems in place to deal with them.

I hope this addresses your questions and concerns.

Also, I joined this forum to learn about CHL matters and to read about questions or concerns that people might have regarding them. If there is something that I can add that will help people out then I will try to do so. My intention was never to "represent" all LE or even all the LEOs in my department. I can really only share my viewpoints and experiences.

Our criminal justice system is comprised of many facets, not just LEOs. The prosecutors, judges and juries wield the ultimate decision as to how matters will be decided. And let's don't forget our legislators and the role that they play.

Now I know what txi meant when he posted:
Heehee, I agree 100%, but put on your fire proof suit. ;-)
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stevie_d_64
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#24

Post by stevie_d_64 »

CHL/LEO wrote:1. you forgot to pay a ticket and a warrant was issued for your arrest. Officer tells you these facts and informs you that he is going to place you under arrest and transport you to jail. In a very polite manner you should immediately tell him about your injury. Tell him that you don't want to be difficult but at the same time you don't want to further aggravate your injury. In my department I have the option of handcuffing an arrestee in the front if need be. The only way I would ever do that if it was due to some type of medical condition. Another option is that I could link several sets of handcuffs together and still cuff you behind your back. Due to the extra length your arm would probably not extend past your centerline. The bottom line is that if you told an officer about some type of pre-existing medical condition and they chose to ignore it and/or make reasonable accommodations for it, their department could be held liable for any additional injuries that you incurred.
But...Even though both parties are informed of each others intent and concerns...You are still not legal to resist, even when the officer ignores your concerns and injures you anyway in the process of putting you into custody...

Now, I understand that the Law Enforcement community has heard it all, and the pity poo process from obviously people trying to dodge the system is very widespread...And that intent to decieve Law Enforcement has gotten people killed in situations like this...

So I figure if you are injured, or a condition is aggrivated by the actions of a LEO, you're just going to have to wait to get your day in court...

But I believe that even this situation is a big stretch on your average encounter...
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
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kw5kw
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#25

Post by kw5kw »

CHL/LEO wrote:<snip> ... I joined this forum to learn about CHL matters and to read about questions or concerns that people might have regarding them. If there is something that I can add that will help people out then I will try to do so. My intention was never to "represent" all LE or even all the LEOs in my department. I can really only share my viewpoints and experiences.

Our criminal justice system is comprised of many facets, not just LEOs. The prosecutors, judges and juries wield the ultimate decision as to how matters will be decided. And let's don't forget our legislators and the role that they play.

Now I know what txi meant when he posted:
Heehee, I agree 100%, but put on your fire proof suit. ;-)
Quite frankly, I'm glad that you're here. It aids us 'civilians' in knowing what the LEO community is thinking/doing.

It's funny, last night, on amateur radio in Ft. Worth we had our weekly KiloCycle club net on 146.840- w/110.9t and one of our members is a local Ft. Worth LEO. Well, we started talking guns, Glock's primarily and cleaning procedures. Well, it's nice to know that LEO's and civilians can have a civil discussion about firearms at any time. And, I like that!

Russ
Russ
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wrt45
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#26

Post by wrt45 »

stevie_d_64 wrote:
So I figure if you are injured, or a condition is aggrivated by the actions of a LEO, you're just going to have to wait to get your day in court...
I agree entirely, and stress this when I am teaching. However, I also know that its easy to say something like this when we're in a classroom or behind a computer monitor. It is an entirely different thing if I walked out into my garage and saw two people pulling my wife's arm out of socket......
I suspect most of us would react differently when its us or ours that is the subject of unlawful, excessive force. I'm not sure I'm rational enough to control myself if I saw someone-anyone- use deadly force (remember the definition- serious bodily injury) against my family.
stevie_d_64 wrote: But I believe that even this situation is a big stretch on your average encounter...
Its that one-in-ten-thousand exception that always gets the discussion going, and the opinions flowing. Unfortunately, thats also what sets a lot of policies and legislation in motion.

The vast majority of us will never encounter a situation to this extreme, beyond our message board discussion.

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#27

Post by CHL/LEO »

But I believe that even this situation is a big stretch on your average encounter...
What specific situation are you referring to?
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stevie_d_64
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#28

Post by stevie_d_64 »

CHL/LEO wrote:
But I believe that even this situation is a big stretch on your average encounter...
What specific situation are you referring to?
You were referring to a situation where a Law Enforcement officer informs you that he/she is going to place you into custody (inferring that you will be placed in handcuffs and arrested, etc etc), and you, inform that officer that you have a "medical" condition, or injury, that may be aggravated in that event...

Your intent is to comply, but inform the officer that you are requesting their (LEO's safety) could be taken into consideration, and that your arrest/detainment/custody be afforded an alternate procedure "if possible"...

I know its all a stretch, and that if all parties involved are on the same page (informed of each others intent), and no resistance is intended...

Thats what I was inferring too...

I hope that cleared it up...If not, feel free to PM me...I feel this may take away from the discussion...
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phddan
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#29

Post by phddan »

CHL/LEO

Thank you for your response to my rather harsh post of you possibly turning a blind eye. No "flame" was meant or intended, but the wording of your post,
Trust me - this (illegal searches/arrests) happens every day here in Texas.
hit a hot spot with me. To me, calling it illegal means the law was broken. I appologize for typing my response with "flame"on my fingers. I really do try to take a civilized tongue with responses, and will try harder in the future.

I get tired of hearing fight it in court. You shouldn't have to fight unjust charges by an incompetent leo. If these people can't do their jobs legally, then they need to find other jobs. Having to pay a lawyer, miss work, and possibly losing your job, without any recourse, just aint right no matter how you cut it. Hence my comment "taking it like sheep".
You might beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride, just really grates on my nerves. Either you have legal evidence of wrongdoig, or you don't. Trained leo know the difference.

I joined this forum for the same reasons as you. I learn alot from postings such as yours, Txi's, and others, and really do appreciate the varried inputs.

Dan

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#30

Post by CHL/LEO »

phddan - I understand how you can feel the way that you do.

Now that the incident involving the Duke lacrosse players has been finally resolved I am both dismayed and angry regarding the DAs actions in that case. These young men have been drug through the mud and their good names ruined due to an overzealous prosecutor with the power of the state behind him. I read today that the legal defense costs for some of these individuals is over 3 million dollars.

I know that civil action is being taken by the state bar against the DA for some of the things that he did. In the article that I read today it mentions that some of these students might file personal suit against him too. Based upon everything that I have read they would probably be justified in doing so. Let him go before the justice system and see how his actions and choices are judged. It won't give them back what was stolen from them and their families but perhaps it will serve notice to others that there will be repercussions if they make these type of bad choices.
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