TABC officers and open carry

[Tim the Teacher]

I was sitting outside the Trail Dust steakhouse in Dallas this evening trying to digest half a cow that I had eaten earlier and I noticed two big guys with guns OWB. I very gently took my right hand and placed it near the bottom of my untucked shirt until I could figure out who they were. As they approached the door to enter I casually threw out a "Howdy" and noticed the badges. I asked what law enforcement office they were from and they told me TABC. I was a not expecting that answer. I said something to the effect that it was a tame crowd of 6 year olds going down the inside slide but good luck in their inspection. My question is "Who ultimately gives the authority of letting these gentleman open carry during inspections?"

[AEA]

They are the same as any Peace Officer and can carry openly or concealed.
They can also write you a ticket for speeding!

[Renegade]

Inspections? Maybe they were just going there for a steak after work.

[KBCraig]

TABC agents are TCLEOSE-certified Peace Officers. Open or concealed, uniformed or plainclothes, all perfectly legal, just the same as if they were local PD or DPS troopers.

I'm sure Steve Rothstein will be along shortly to comment. He has some insight on TABC LEOs.

Kevin

[CHL/LEO]

My question is "Who ultimately gives the authority of letting these gentleman open carry during inspections?"

The Texas Code of Criminal Procedures and their agency's policies.

[txinvestigator]

It is a misconception that open carry of handguns is generally prohibited.

The Penal code makes the carry of handguns, on or about your peson, illegal. No mention is made of concealed or not, loaded or not.

Section 46.15 of the penal code states when it is NOT illegal to carry a handgun. The only clauses in that section that requires the handgun to be concealed to be legal is for a person carrying under the authority of a CHL, or as a Personal Protection Officer.

That section also requires armed guards to carry "in plain view" and all of the other sections allowing the carry of handguns are silent on open or concealed, meaning you can carry however you like.

So the following can carry however they like;

A person who is in the actual discharge of official duties as a
member of the armed forces or state military forces as, or as an employee of a penal institution who is performing a security function; or as a guard employed by a penal
institution;


A person who is on the person's own premises or premises under
the person's control

A person who is traveling;

A person who is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other
sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is
conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's
residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
A person who holds an alcoholic beverage permit or license or
is an employee of a holder of an alcoholic beverage permit or
license if the person is supervising the operation of the permitted
or licensed premises.


As far as the TABC guys;

Texas Penal Code

§ 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on
or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.


§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03
do not apply to:
(1) peace officers or special investigators under
Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section
prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a
weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state
serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or
special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the
officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon.

Texas Code of Criminal Procedure

Art. 2.12. WHO ARE PEACE OFFICERS. The following are peace
officers:
(6) law enforcement agents of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage
Commission;

[stevie_d_64]

I very gently took my right hand and placed it near the bottom of my untucked shirt until I could figure out who they were.

[srothstein]

Stevie,

I assumed he meant he was preparing for things to go bad until he could see who it was. Not an unreasonable response, but I would assume if I saw someone carrying in a holster, that he was good to go. It may sound funny, but I have never seen a BG use a holster. They all seem to go for waistband or pocket carry.


Tim,

TABC officers are all peace officers, as has been pointed out. As such, there are almost no laws on how they carry.

We do not have uniformed officers, so all of our agents are in plainclothes. They almost all carry on their waist in somewhat plain view. Most of the time, we wear a jacket and tie when doing inspections, but not always. The area captain has the authority to relax the dress code rule for the weather/location/activity. For example, when we work spring break, the officers almost all just wear polo shirts or sport shirts with slacks, no tie or jacket.

It is not unusual to see our officers open carry in plain clothes or somewhat concealed with a tie and jacket on.

Hope that helps explain it a little bit. If not, ask and I will try to answer better.

[stevie_d_64]

I assumed he meant he was preparing for things to go bad until he could see who it was. Not an unreasonable response, but I would assume if I saw someone carrying in a holster, that he was good to go. It may sound funny, but I have never seen a BG use a holster. They all seem to go for waistband or pocket carry.

It is not unusual to see our officers open carry in plain clothes or somewhat concealed with a tie and jacket on.

I understood that from the get go...The reason I posted a very simple , was to inquire as to what anyone thinks they can do by prepatory action or movement believing that you're going to have an advantage somehow in a situation as described???

I didn't post the original situation, and the obvious issues about dress and other factors of LEO carry have been answered...

I am asking the originator what they thought they would do if they didn't see any Law Enforcement credentials as they walked by them???

Its an open ended question that I believe it is fair to ask, and not meant to be argumentative to the point of disrespect of their point of view...Its a challenge I would fully expect to have asked of me if I posted this situation...

Tim's ok in my book, for what thats worth...

I am just not a big cheerleader of "prepatory" movement in a state that stresses the concealment portion of our ability to carry in public...And concealment also means (to me, maybe others) to not do anything however subtle you think you are, somebody (you might not want to) is going to notice your movement...Then what do they think they are going to do, and so on, and so on...Then you have this big ole, tense situation where everyone is "thinking" too much...

It doesn't help the digestion as far as I can tell...

I know where Tim is coming from, and I do not believe he did a single thing wrong...My opinion was that this little aspect of the situation was un-necessary, and possibly dangerous to him to get in a habit of doing...

Again this is just my opinion...

[CHL/LEO]

We do not have uniformed officers

The only time that I've seen TABC officers in something that might be considered a uniform is when they work as bike officers in the Central Business District (West End and Deep Ellum) areas of Dallas. This is usually during the Friday night TX/OU Rally and they're wearing their TABC polo shirts, bike shorts and duty belts. Other than that they are dressed as you described, depending upon the weather.

[srothstein]

I am asking the originator what they thought they would do if they didn't see any Law Enforcement credentials as they walked by them???

Its an open ended question that I believe it is fair to ask, and not meant to be argumentative to the point of disrespect of their point of view...Its a challenge I would fully expect to have asked of me if I posted this situation...

Tim's ok in my book, for what thats worth...

I am just not a big cheerleader of "prepatory" movement in a state that stresses the concealment portion of our ability to carry in public...

Ahh, sorry my answer then. I guess I took it a little differently because I am a fan of preparation. Obviously, I was taught things differently, but it just does not seem reasonable to me to see something that appears dangerous about to happen and not take the appropriate preparatory actions.

So this is a good discussion for the group. I will post this part of this in a new thread.

[AEA]

My thought on this is that if he could see the guns, then it was too late for any preparative action anyway and such action, if noticed by the Officers, could cause a bad situation.

I agree that we should all be prepared and I suggest that our training should have us as prepared as we can get.

Based on what I read from the original poster, I would say that they were too close for him to take any action anyway.

I personally would have realized that I was too late to take any action at all, other than to observe and react as necessary (last stand if it came to that).
I also would not have said anything to them at all.

[Tim the Teacher]

They were approaching from the dark side of the building dressed in jeans at 10:00pm in a business zone where multiple strip clubs and bars are located. Just being cautious ...

[WestTx]

§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03
do not apply to:
(1) peace officers or special investigators under
Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section
prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a
weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state
serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or
special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the
officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon.

[/quote]


and don't forget retired police officers carrying as per 46.15 (5)

Les

[txinvestigator]

§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03
do not apply to:
(1) peace officers or special investigators under
Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section
prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a
weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state
serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or
special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the
officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon.

Sigh.............There are MANY categories that I did not address, as the point if this thread is TABC officers specifically.


and don't forget retired police officers carrying as per 46.15 (5)