Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

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wally775
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

Postby wally775 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:59 pm

skeathley wrote:I already went through this with DPS. That is a typo. Students can shoot .22, but instructors have to shoot at least .32. They had a lot of trouble getting a determination on that, so I would err on the side of caution and shoot 9mm or above and .38. There could not be a complaint about that.

:rules:


:iagree: :smash:

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Liberty
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

Postby Liberty » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:05 pm

skeathley wrote:I already went through this with DPS. That is a typo. Students can shoot .22, but instructors have to shoot at least .32. They had a lot of trouble getting a determination on that, so I would err on the side of caution and shoot 9mm or above and .38. There could not be a complaint about that.

:rules:

:iagree: This makes more sense. I couldn't understand why they would change it. If anything I would have that that DPS would ease the standards or eliminate alltogether for renewals. Drawing the line at .38 made no sense at all and would have technically eliminated 9mm
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jmorris
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

Postby jmorris » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:57 pm

skeathley wrote:I already went through this with DPS. That is a typo. Students can shoot .22, but instructors have to shoot at least .32. They had a lot of trouble getting a determination on that, so I would err on the side of caution and shoot 9mm or above and .38. There could not be a complaint about that.

:rules:


I can believe that but it said .38 when I went through Jan 2016. You'd think by now it would have been corrected.
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skeathley
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

Postby skeathley » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:48 am

They told me on the phone that they were getting it corrected, BUT this was in relation to the SSC qualification, not LTC. They may not realize the typo has been copied over to other documents.

I was talking to DPS, but the documentation is maintained by RSD. RSD is a bigger bureaucracy than I used to realuze. This is like trying to get an answer from DMV.

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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

Postby AF-Odin » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:34 am

and remember that MANY times laws and rules are written by folks that really do not know everything about what they are regulating. Many of the folks in government do not know that a .38 Special is really only .357 inch or that a 9mm is really only .354 or .355 inch. :tiphat:
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

Postby skeathley » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:18 am

The whole caliber thing needs to be thought through again. While my discussion was about SSC (not LTC), it should be the same. I was told by DPS that students could technically use .22, but instructors taking that certification could only use .32 or above. The change in state law only applies to students, while DPS can set policies for instructors. I am not fond of letting people get an LTC on a .22, but I can live with it. My problems are

1. If the term Firearms Instructor is to have any meaning, we should be required to use 9mm or above to qualify, and shoot 240, not 225. Some of my new students can shoot 225.

2. Students taking SSC are training for an active shooter event. The bad guy won't be carrying a .22, so school staff should not. But if they got their LTC on a .22, then the state has backed themselves into a corner, and can't argue for a higher standard.

Imagine a crazy guy in a school setting; he has an AR-15, a 9mm, a 1911 .45, 5 loaded AR mags, and 10 loaded pistol mags. The only person in the school with a gun has a Beretta Bobcat .22. Really? He may as well have a Nerf gun.

It is very unlikely a typical LTC person would face this situation, but school shooters almost always come prepared for war.

Terrorism is slowly coming to America. Do you think they have not studied the case of Adam Lanza?

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Liberty
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

Postby Liberty » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:43 am

skeathley wrote:The whole caliber thing needs to be thought through again. While my discussion was about SSC (not LTC), it should be the same. I was told by DPS that students could technically use .22, but instructors taking that certification could only use .32 or above. The change in state law only applies to students, while DPS can set policies for instructors. I am not fond of letting people get an LTC on a .22, but I can live with it. My problems are

1. If the term Firearms Instructor is to have any meaning, we should be required to use 9mm or above to qualify, and shoot 240, not 225. Some of my new students can shoot 225.


I assume the quality of instruction has very little to do with the marksmanship of the instructor. We must keep in mind that the instructors' job at an LTC class is not to teach or demonstrate marksmanship. One of the reasons I don't take proficiency test or the scores seriously is that I believe very few people take the qualifications with the actual gun they intend to EDC. I know personally I can reliably max the test with my full sized 9mm handguns, although I am also sure I could pass with my 9mm 3" barrel, I would not likely score a 250. I believe that the proficiency test does have a good purpose, that giving the instructors observation of safe gun handling.
skeathley wrote:2. Students taking SSC are training for an active shooter event. The bad guy won't be carrying a .22, so school staff should not. But if they got their LTC on a .22, then the state has backed themselves into a corner, and can't argue for a higher standard.

Imagine a crazy guy in a school setting; he has an AR-15, a 9mm, a 1911 .45, 5 loaded AR mags, and 10 loaded pistol mags. The only person in the school with a gun has a Beretta Bobcat .22. Really? He may as well have a Nerf gun.

It is very unlikely a typical LTC person would face this situation, but school shooters almost always come prepared for war.

Terrorism is slowly coming to America. Do you think they have not studied the case of Adam Lanza?

:banghead:


Anyone challenging a terrorist is most likely going to be outgunned. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a chance.

At any rate I don't have a dog in this race, I am not an instructor, Haven't had to qualify in years, and am unlikely to in the future. All my handguns are 9mm.
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kjolly
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

Postby kjolly » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:26 pm

In this years meeting the question was asked if instructors can qualify with a .22 and we were informed to stay with the standard calibers.
A 9mm actually has slightly better ballistics than the 38 special. The 9 is a slightly stronger hit.
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