Idea for instructors re: students below poverty line

[Hoi Polloi]

81aggie recently posted a thread linking to this article in the San Antonio news called Gun permits tied to wealth and politics.

Leaving aside the article writer's class warfare politics, a few things do stand out to me. Namely, the number of poor and minorities who apply for CHLs. While 81aggie believes it is because those groups can't pass background checks, I think it is much more likely that it isn't on their radar or part of their culture because of a strong, clear, and intentional history of our nation keeping them away from guns. I think many of them are completely unaware of the aims of gun control being primarily to keep them in their place and they don't know other people in their circles who introduce them to that knowledge.

So what does this have to do with instructors? I want to throw an idea out there for you to kick around.

What if the majority of CHL instructors chose to offer one seat per class at half price to anyone who demonstrably qualifies for the state's indigency hardship? Or all the seats at one class per month, or at actual cost, whatever... Would that be incentive enough to get enough poor and minorities to get their CHLs and promote them to others? Over time, I think it would. I think the word of mouth would really make a difference.

[Hoi Polloi]

In cross-posting to 81aggie's thread, tacticool responded to me there. I think the discussion is more relevant to this thread so I'm moving it over here.

Thanks for posting this! It gave me an idea which I just posted in the Instructor's Corner about CHL instructors voluntarily offering 1 seat per class or some other variation of reduced cost to anyone who qualifies for the indigency rate with the state.

If this is something you believe in, you could become certified and teach free classes. Did you know you can become an instructor without having a CHL?

Priorities, priorities. I must learn to shoot first before even considering teaching others. I did not know that a CHL is not required for CHL instructors, though it makes sense from an administrative standpoint. Not so much from a practical one, though.

And I recognize fully that CHL instructors are running a business and that is why I said only 1 seat a class or some other variation completely as I believe it will, in the long run, increase business but I recognize that in the short term it would be a choice of values, marketing, promotion, etc vs. finances, which is not a decision to be made lightly when running a business.

I'm not saying I think anyone has an obligation to do this. I'm just throwing the idea out there for current instructors to kick around. Maybe some will like it. Maybe not. It doesn't hurt to wonder what if and see where it goes.

[terryg]

Let me first make a disclaimer that I don't teach a CHL and its easy to think of really cool ideas when its not your own bread and butter. And I don't mean that directed at you, Hoi. I mean it in relation to the ideas I am about to write.

My first thought was, yeah that would be pretty cool. Mixing some compassionate capitalism in with community service and with a pinch of good PR. The first drawbacks that came to mind were dealing with the applications and potentially with waiting lists.

But then I thought about my own circumstances. I had been thinking about getting a CHL for many years before I finally did it this past year. There were many factors in this decision, but one of those was financial. Now if I had really wanted it, we could have found the money somewhere. But the cost is more than just the class and the state fee. In order to do CHL right, how much money has each of us spent on holsters and clothes that allow for concealment. Then there is ammo and range fees to get proficient.

So in the end, how much easier would a $50 discount on the class make it for a struggling family?

[longtooth]

81aggie recently posted a thread linking to this article in the San Antonio news called Gun permits tied to wealth and politics.

Leaving aside the article writer's class warfare politics, a few things do stand out to me. Namely, the number of poor and minorities who apply for CHLs. While 81aggie believes it is because those groups can't pass background checks, I think it is much more likely that it isn't on their radar or part of their culture because of a strong, clear, and intentional history of our nation keeping them away from guns. I think many of them are completely unaware of the aims of gun control being primarily to keep them in their place and they don't know other people in their circles who introduce them to that knowledge.

So what does this have to do with instructors? I want to throw an idea out there for you to kick around.

What if the majority of CHL instructors chose to offer one seat per class at half price to anyone who demonstrably qualifies for the state's indigency hardship? Or all the seats at one class per month, or at actual cost, whatever... Would that be incentive enough to get enough poor and minorities to get their CHLs and promote them to others? Over time, I think it would. I think the word of mouth would really make a difference.

I do not know your age but I perceive young.
I have found during my 40 yrs of adult life (I will be 61 shortly) that folks will find a way to do what they want to do. What they are committed to they will accomplish. If they are not committed they will not do it at any free price. I will give 3 examples.
I teach personal defense as well as the CHL class. I have given 2 family members & 1 non family member a blank check for personal defense training. Take the class & get your CHL. That will be your investment. After that attend free any personal defense class that I give as long as it is not full. It is not the $$$ I am not willing to give up as much as I am not willing to let someone serious about learning go w/o training.
To date none of the 3 have made any effort to get the CHL. Just not interested enough to do it.
I have made several offers over time to folks that "could not afford a gun" to help them find one. When I do find one in the price range they have stated, "well, not right now." If they wont get on the boards & learn, look, watch & prepare for a good deal when it comes along, they wont take the deal when I find it.
I have quit that.
I dont believe there is a legitamate large pool of folks that cannot at all save the amount it takes to get a CHL if they wanted to. Folks come up w/ what they want.
I also believe there are far more CHL Instructors than you may think, that if they know personally someone who is really serious about personal defense & gives evidence of really trying that they will be more than willing to help in whatever way is necessary.
If what you have suggested was offered my 40yrs of dealing w/ people assures me that Instructors would be abused by folks trying to get something for less than others. It would take a lot of extra time & effort to verify their true need.
I am sure not many instructors have that time. I assure you I dont personally know one that does.
LT

[hangfour]

I have found during my 40 yrs of adult life (I will be 61 shortly) that folks will find a way to do what they want to do. What they are committed to they will accomplish. If they are not committed they will not do it at any free price.

I agree with this ... I'm 68 now and have come to realize (I know this sounds harsh) that people need their suffering. It is though pain and discomfort that we strive to relieve it and hence grow. Whenever I have tried to help someone out of their troubles they either end up hating me for failing to make them better or end up feeling diminished because they they were not able to find their own way. When I was younger I believed otherwise. Life is strange. By the time you start to get it figured out you don't need to have it figured out anymore cause you are too old for it to matter.

[Rick343]

Is it by choice or by chance these lower income or no income people are in the position they are in. You and I have made a choice to be CHL instructors to help people get what is constitutionly their right to bear arms. We have made a substantial investment in time and money not to give our investment away to someone that wants a handout. I hade to save for my license and then also the amount I spent to go to the instructors school. They also need to do the same. The state gives that person 1 year after the initial class to get the license. I know the initial cost is around $250 for the class and license and that computes to about $21 per month, 3 to 4 packs of smokes or a 24 pack of beer. Personally I don't have social programs and don't like social programs and to help someone that can help themselves is out of the question.

[Rick343]

Another note, right now 1 in 7 Americans are below the poverty level and that is disgusting and not American.

[MoJo]

I have comped a few classes and will probably do so again in the future. So far the people who have gotten the class comped have gotten their CHL and have even referred a few folks. Setting myself up as a social aid agency isn't the reason I became an instructor I want to see that motivated men and women get top notch training in protecting themselves and their families.

[BobCat]

<snip> Whenever I have tried to help someone out of their troubles they either end up hating me for failing to make them better or end up feeling diminished because they they were not able to find their own way. When I was younger I believed otherwise. Life is strange. By the time you start to get it figured out you don't need to have it figured out anymore cause you are too old for it to matter.

You are exactly right, in my experience and opinion. The only thing I want to disagree with is "too old for it to matter". I am indeed to old for it to matter in my life, but we can have a positive effect by passing along what we have learned to those younger than we are. This is not just technical stuff at work, it is practical life stuff - like this thread and what you wrote.

It is good-hearted to suggest giving a break to "those less fortunate than we are" (I hate that phrase, I've heard it all my life, it is inaccurate PC and that's why I used it here) - and there would be practical benefit if enough people from other demographics actually got their CHLs and changed the statistics. But just like "free" education in the public schools, anything that is too cheap is not valued or truly used properly.

I need to shut up, I'm rambling. You are right about what you said.

Regards,
Andrew

[Purplehood]

Actually this sounds like a good idea. But I would hesitate to try and implement it without going into other details.

- How does a low-income member acquire a weapon for qualification?
- Should there be a mandatory requirement (for those that have no LEO or Military experience for example) to go through a free seminar on handgun shooting, safety and related subjects prior to the CHL class?
- Should the whole option of CHL's for lower-income people be something that is "advertised" at the local Welfare office?

I am just throwing thoughts out there.

[longtooth]

Another note, right now 1 in 7 Americans are below the poverty level and that is disgusting and not American.

Sir you are so out of touch w/ the founding Fathers.
This is the land of Opportunity. Those 1 in 7 have the same opportunity as the other 6.

This in not the land of guaranteed income.
That place is the obomanation.
LT

[sjfcontrol]

Another note, right now 1 in 7 Americans are below the poverty level and that is disgusting and not American.

Sir you are so out of touch w/ the founding Fathers.
This is the land of Opportunity. Those 1 in 7 have the same opportunity as the other 6.

This in not the land of guaranteed income.
That place is the obomanation.
LT

Hear, Hear!

[i8godzilla]

Another note, right now 1 in 7 Americans are below the poverty level and that is disgusting and not American.

Sir you are so out of touch w/ the founding Fathers.
This is the land of Opportunity. Those 1 in 7 have the same opportunity as the other 6.

This in not the land of guaranteed income.
That place is the obomanation.
LT

With all of the handouts, social programs, private charity, 'food stamps', etc.......I be willing to bet that quite a few of those in 'poverty' are actually better off that you think!

[pbwalker]

Another note, right now 1 in 7 Americans are below the poverty level and that is disgusting and not American.

Sir you are so out of touch w/ the founding Fathers.
This is the land of Opportunity. Those 1 in 7 have the same opportunity as the other 6.

This in not the land of guaranteed income.
That place is the obomanation.
LT

[Hoi Polloi]

It is good-hearted to suggest giving a break to "those less fortunate than we are" (I hate that phrase, I've heard it all my life, it is inaccurate PC and that's why I used it here) - and there would be practical benefit if enough people from other demographics actually got their CHLs and changed the statistics. But just like "free" education in the public schools, anything that is too cheap is not valued or truly used properly.

Andrew,

I agree with your sentiment. To clarify, I am not talking about giving away for free. Half the state fees ($140/2=70) plus half the instruction fees ($100ish/2=50) plus a handgun ($100-200?), plus 10-15 hours instruction in addition to driving time and gas and bullets, plus paperwork including additional documentation of proof of indigency, and background checks... it wouldn't exactly be a free handout.

And it wouldn't be a completely selfless venture, either. The more people with CHLs, the better your business will be, the more they will refer others, the more they will elect those who will protect their rights...

And if you have a small finite space for the cut rate (1 seat per class was my example and only going to those who ask for it, meet the indigency requirement, and come to class), there would be incentive to pay for the entire class and not wait to be drawn from the bucket at some unknown random date, but those truly in need would have an opportunity to do so. And maybe some of them wouldn't really be in that much need. So what? Other than wanting that spot to go to someone who was, you are still helping yourself and your own cause to get them in the classroom and sitting through the entire class and doing the work and walking away to talk about it with others and hopefully becoming CHL holders just the same when they might not have done so otherwise. It's marketing.

I'm thinking of it from a business, PR, economics, and political standpoint. It would help the cause in the long run to get more poor and minorities carrying. The attitude that you worked for it so they should have to, too, really seems to go against the general sentiment I see expressed here that it should be an uninfringed right for any who are not disqualified and that people shouldn't have to work for it. Granted, at the microeconomics level of this is MY business and MY checkbook and I couldn't reach solvency under that model right now then it would be a poor decision to place the social value above the finances or to allow the marketing expenditures to put the business under. But at a macro level, I really am surprised by the particular response that the poor and minorities must not have their licenses because they are lazy, they're wasting their money on frivolities, they made their own beds and need to lie in them, and they probably can't pass a background check anyway... and it isn't fair that we aren't poor enough to qualify and had to pay for it so they should have to, too.

There seems to be a real disconnect between what's good for the goose not being good for the gander. There also seems to be a disconnect between what is actually being done (two here and 1 PM said they know of classes being comped for those in need in just such a way and of how successful it has been for them) and what is being promoted. It seems like we're having two very different conversations.