Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

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beardking
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by beardking »

chabouk wrote:
It's not up to me to decide if my stuff is worth killing for. It's up to the thief to decide if my stuff is worth dying for.
So far this year I have my truck stolen from my office and stripped of over $2000 worth of stereo equipment and $1500 worth of wheels and tires, not to mention the extra $$ it cost to have all of that and the related damage replaced/repaired, and my wife's debit card info has been stolen and used for about $800 worth of various crap. I've never considered myself a forgiving person when it comes to people that mess with my stuff, but after the way this year has gone, I have absolutely no compassion for a thief of any sort.

Would I have immediately shot the lowlife? Probably not, but I can definitely say that I would have had no qualms whatsoever with answer his demands for my Iphone with a nice shiny piece of metal that I believe would have easily transferred my response to him. If the mere sight of it did not suffice and he kept advancing and threatening me, well, I would probably be speaking to an attorney shortly thereafter. And I honestly believe I wouldn't have any regrets. I hope to never have to test this theory, but the reason I went through the process to get my CHL in the first place was so I could be (legally) prepared in the even I do have to.
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flintknapper
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by flintknapper »

gigag04 wrote:Looks like some of us need to review our penal code :tiphat:


Yup! :iagree:


Be very careful about when you use deadly force (or the threat of deadly force).
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by LarryH »

handog wrote:Deadly force is not justified in this situation. If the BG grabbed my arm I would just blow one of his knee caps off. :fire
That's still deadly force.
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by MoJo »

The questions that come to my mind are:

Why did your son leave his gun in the car?

How did the assailant know he had an iPhone?

Why didn't he report the incident to 911?

It sounds like he may have been operating in condition "Transparent" or white at the best. Crossing parking lots such as WalMart, Malls or any other "big box" merchants calls for heightened awareness and if it is night it calls for condition Orange. Too many people with CHLs have little or no awareness they think the gun itself will protect them like some kind of magical talisman.

The only confrontations you can really win are the ones you avoid.
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handog
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by handog »

LarryH wrote:
handog wrote:Deadly force is not justified in this situation. If the BG grabbed my arm I would just blow one of his knee caps off. :fire
That's still deadly force.
The next sentence begins with "Seriously" indicating that the above statement was not serious. :biggrinjester:
Last edited by handog on Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by handog »

MoJo wrote:

The only confrontations you can really win are the ones you avoid.
:cheers2: Cheers to that!
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by Abraham »

Consider, if one is infirm, at what point do you act out of self defense or do you let some potential bad guy put his hands on you first?

Given the wording of the parking lot stranger coming at the good guy (he identified himself as highly suspicious and then proved it by putting his hands on the good guy while demanding the good guys property - would you be willing to remain passive?

I'm not advocating anything - I've read the variety of responses and wonder which one is the most appropriate and have yet to hear any LEO on the board clarify...
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by Beiruty »

Kidnapping, aggravated robbery with deadly force, aggravated assault with deadly force, justify the response with similar deadly force.
When talking about simple assault (i.e. fist fight) only the disparity of force "may" justify the threat of deadly force ( drawing your gun).

As indicated above, we all need a refresher for the TX guns laws and that CHL booklet is worth reading again.

if you try to pull a gun on someone who wants to forcibly make a phone using your lovely iPone. 911 on the scene, you are arrested for aggravated assault and the other guys goes free. :banghead:
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by Dragonfighter »

IANAL, IANLEO and IDNPOOTV, but:
Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE.
The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.

(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.

(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.
Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.
A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A)the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Maybe all of us need to review the statutes. :roll:

I quit keeping BUGs in the cars for this kind of dilemma. The car is not worth killing over if I were to see a BG driving off with it, but with a BUG in the car it is almost mandatory I stop the theft. An iPhone laying on a counter, the hood of the car or whatever that is snatched and run away with is not worth shooting over either, IMHO.

BUT the law only requires a "reasonable" fear of serious bodily harm to employ deadly force. The display of deadly force "for the sole purpose of causing apprehension" is simply force. So:

1)If I am approached and I tell the guy to stop where he is and he continues to approach he is threatening force (intimidation is force). I used to be pretty good in the day but I'm now fat, bald, old and am not inclined to tap into my non-existent psychic abilities to sort out the motivations. Disparity of force becomes an issue for consideration.

2) I now display my weapon and tell him to stop where he is and he continues, apprehension has not been created and I can be "reasonably" sure he intends to do me harm. I am not going to wait until he comes within reach or displays a weapon because unless I get lucky, I'll likely lose the fight.

3) Under no circumstances will I allow them to lay a hand on me.

4) I will escalate more rapidly if my family is with me than if they are not.

Added in edit: If I pull a gun on someone who wants to forcibly make a call on my iPhone (if that's all he wanted), I will likely change his mind and have presented an aggravated assault on my person. If he was intent on using force to get his phone call, he has escalated the encounter to one with potential and justifiably deadly consequences.
I Thess 5:21
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kragluver
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by kragluver »

About that time the man grabbed my sons arm and said give me your I-Phone !!
For those of you questioning whether he should have drawn at that point or not - how would the son know he wasn't about to be kidnapped? At the time the BG grabbed his arm, this stopped being about the cell phone. If a stranger forcibly grabs my arm or attempts to close with me quickly after I've already made loud, verbal warnings to back off, I'm drawing my pistol. If he doesn't stop at that point, I'm shooting.

Edit: Just had another thought. This brings up another good point that was alluded to in an earlier post - make sure you carry your bags in your weak hand. For those of us that carry strong side IWB (like I do), it is VERY difficult to draw weak handed. If the BG had grabbed my right arm, punching with your left hand and breaking free (and perhaps some kicks to the knees) would be the first step and really only option. Then if you COULD escape, do so. In that case, you wouldn't have to draw unless the BG pursues.

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Beiruty
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by Beiruty »

Thanks for posting!
We need all the time to read again the statues.

The law clearly justify the threat of deadly force and use of deadly force against a robber. There is no indication what the value of the robbed property. Morally, If someone tried to rob me while presenting a deadly force, I would not hesitate to deploy deadly force. Now, if I was assaulted and someone tried to remove my wallet it is dicey issue. I am glad TX law is on our side.

Strange enough, there is no justification for the threat of force or the use of force for simple physical assault (fist fights).
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Abraham wrote:Consider, if one is infirm, at what point do you act out of self defense or do you let some potential bad guy put his hands on you first?
That is exactly part of my point. I am not capable of going there without losing every single time. Therefore, I am never going to give anybody a chance to go mano a mano with me. Period. For any reason. Any stranger who tries is going to get shot. Period.
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davidtx
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by davidtx »

quidni wrote:
MedicMan218 wrote:Just somethin else to think about with people who have an iPhone.
How much personal info do you have on there?
Names and address of friends and family, financial documents and account numbers, work related items, etc.....
I couldn't afford to lose my iPhone. On top of losing the 500.00 I paid for it when it came out I would then be in a vunerable situation to have my identity stolen.
Personally I wouldnt have this problem because I'm pretty cautions with passwords and codes and keep limited sensitive info on my phone but I know there are a lot of people out there that this could happen to very easily.
By stopping the BG you potentially save yourself more hassle down the road.

Look at my signature for a great quote that is very applicable to this thread.
Dunno about the iPhone, but 'droids have this nifty app where, if the phone is stolen, you can call your number from another phone, enter a code, and immediately lock/wipe your phone where ever it is. Your backed-up info can be re-loaded into a new phone at your convenience. I'd be very surprised if iPhones didn't also have this capability.
You can do this via MobileMe, but it requires a MobileMe account and web access. You can also get the location of the phone before taking the last resort of wiping it.
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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by gwashorn »

Bottom line I am with The Annoyed Man. My mental hairs on my neck would tell me this person is going to do harm even if I have not SEEN the method to do the harm. Therefore, I must ASSUME there is deadly force available and act accordingly. At 20 feet away a BG can bolt, get to you, pull a knife and you lose. Are you willing to accept that? I am not. So you do as stated to effect a verbal stop, continue to move your mental and physical mode to protect yourself and continue to put yourself in position to assert the needed force to stop the BG. If that means drawing or revealing your weapon then so be it. If it stops there, I use my phone, call 911 and wait in a safe area even if I have to leave and wait for the police. If I draw and the BG runs, I still use the phone and deal with the police. But I do not let some one yelling at me dictate my life. As said by others, allowing them to get away with that puts all others at the same risk.

As a note in past couple of years, BG now rob and even if the victim complies, they kill. So I have to expect that in my case and must defend.

BTW, I liked your wording in your first post Annoyed Man. Well spoken.

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Re: Almost Robbed At Walmart !!!

Post by chabouk »

kragluver wrote:
About that time the man grabbed my sons arm and said give me your I-Phone !!
For those of you questioning whether he should have drawn at that point or not - how would the son know he wasn't about to be kidnapped?
Exactly. Those who insist they wouldn't use (or even threaten) deadly force over a phone, are making an assumption that the phone is all the robber wanted, and that he would be satisfied when he got it.

What if he grabbed your arm and insisted you hand over your gun (leaving aside the issue of how he knew you were carrying)? Would you just hand it over with the assumption he would just go away?

If he's got your phone, he's got your main tool for summoning help. He can then get even closer and demand your car keys, wallet, jewelry, or whatever else he wants.
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