don't talk to the police ?

[israel67]

Shamelessly stolen from Two Wheel Texans ..

http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/

Comments ?

What if you have to use your weapon in defence of your life? The BG is lying there with holes in him, you holster your weapon, dial 911 and wait for the cavalry to arrive.

The cops come up, ask 'what the heck happened??'

Do you talk to them?

[Liberty]

Shamelessly stolen from Two Wheel Texans ..

http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/

Comments ?

What if you have to use your weapon in defence of your life? The BG is lying there with holes in him, you holster your weapon, dial 911 and wait for the cavalry to arrive.

The cops come up, ask 'what the heck happened??'

Do you talk to them?

Charles has a great class on this. The answer basically is, be polite, if you believe, you have the discipline to not say to much briefly explain what happened ie. " I was forced to defend myself when he tried to kill me." Let them know who you are and that you want to be cooperative, but need some time to clear your thoughts. Don't incriminate yourself. don't lie. and talk to a lawyer As Soon As Possible.
You are better off saying nothing than too much.

[israel67]

Shamelessly stolen from Two Wheel Texans ..

http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/

Comments ?

What if you have to use your weapon in defence of your life? The BG is lying there with holes in him, you holster your weapon, dial 911 and wait for the cavalry to arrive.

The cops come up, ask 'what the heck happened??'

Do you talk to them?

Charles has a great class on this. The answer basically is, be polite, if you believe, you have the discipline to not say to much briefly explain what happened ie. " I was forced to defend myself when he tried to kill me." Let them know who you are and that you want to be cooperative, but need some time to clear your thoughts. Don't incriminate yourself. don't lie. and talk to a lawyer As Soon As Possible.
You are better off saying nothing than too much.

Sounds like good advice. I always imagine what would happen here. Guns are illegal, full stop so if you carry one, you're breaking the law. Then one day, you need to use that gun to stop someone killing you. You don't want to harm anyone, you just want to go about your daily life in peace. But someone decided that he wants your wallet to pay for some white powder, and he's got a big Bowie knife that says 'obey or die!'.

You choose to do neither.

Cops arrive, you explain what happened and say you really had no choice.

'Hmmm ...' says the cop. 'I see your dilemma, Sir. If you hadn't shot him, he'd have killed you'.
'Phew!' you exclaim. 'Thanks, Officer! I really appreciate that you're being so understanding!!'
'No problem, Sir. Now, please place your hands behind your back.'
'Eh ... wha-??'
'I'm arresting you on suspicion of murder ...'
'But, but .. .you said you understood!!!'
'I do, Sir. You have the right to remain silent ..'
'No, wait a minute!!'
'... if you choose not to remain silent, anything you say.. .'
'Hang on, wait !!'

But he wouldn't listen. We are denied the right to defend ourselves, and so any act of self defence is de facto unlawful.

Just in case any of you were wondering why this place sucks so much ...

A couple of years ago, I was walking along the underground tunnels in the public transport system here when I heard screaming. Looking down a small interconnecting tunnel, I saw a guy holding his (I suppose) girlfriend by the hair and smacking her face off the wall of the tunnel. There was a crowd around them, with one particularly brave middle-aged guy standing a few feet away, his hands raised in a 'let's all calm down' pose. Kudos to him, 'cos the BG was carrying a knife in his other hand.

This was before the advent of carry-everywhere mobile phones, but I ran to a wall-mounted phone next to a fruit seller (who, incidentally, was carrying on as if nothing were amiss) and dialled 17 (our equivelent of 911). The cops arrived maybe six or seven minutes later, but the crowd (and the skuz who lacked any respect for women) had gone by then.

I often think about that event when reading the 'do you intervene?' threads here and over on defensivecarry.com. If I'd been carrying that day, I would have intervened. I know I'd have acted. Not because I'm brave, but because I believe passionately in the preservation of human life at all costs. 'course, I'm a single man without any ties and no one would miss me if I bought the farm, and in no way, shape or form do I condemn those who choose not to intervene.

[Kerbouchard]

"Sir, I was scared for my life and I was forced to defend myself. I'm pretty shaken up right now, and do not wish to make a statement at this time."

There is a reason they say anything you say can and will be used AGAINST you...nothing you say that is positive to your case can be used as evidence. Everything you say that is negative to your case can be used as evidence. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Look where talking too much got Joe Horn...I don't think he'll be indicted, but he's not out of the woods yet. Don't talk too much to the 911 operator. Don't talk to the police. Don't say anything you don't have to. Because none of it will do you any good. You can't talk yourself out of getting arrested. If they are going to arrest you, nothing you say is going to make a difference and can only make it worse. Also, the officer will write down what he remembers you saying. Not exactly what you said.

Keep it simple and keep your mouth shut. Just my .02

[Glock 23]

like Kerbouchard said, my instructor advised saying "I was in fear for my life".

Those seemed to be the keywords. But yea, might wanna shutty after that.

[israel67]

like Kerbouchard said, my instructor advised saying "I was in fear for my life".

Those seemed to be the keywords. But yea, might wanna shutty after that.

I just posted this to Two Wheeled Texans (lemme know if I'm breaking any rules by crossposting) ...

Yeah, but what about a citizen-involved shooting?

I ask, 'cos it worries me. I live alone and see no reason why that should change, when I come to Texas. OK, so I shoot a bad guy inside my appartment at three o'clock in the morning, and there's a .38 snubbie lying next to him with his prints on it, and ballistics find that the same weapon was used to shoot a 7-11 check-out operator two days previously, and his ugly mug is on the surveillance camera, showing him pulling the trigger.

In a case like that, I'm cool. Question: do I still not talk to the police?

Now another scenario. By definition, I spend most of my time alone. I'm writing these words alone, I'll be alone when I go out later to do some grocery shopping, and I'll be alone tomorrow morning when I'm in the train on my way to my school. At school, I chat with colleagues and occasionally go for a coffee across the road with one or two of them. At home, friends occasionally come over, or I go to their places. But unlike married men and fathers, I'm alone more than I'm in company.

What happens if I'm coming out of Wal-Mart, I'm carrying, and something bad goes down. Let's say .. um, dunno ..two guys come towards me, one pulls a gun and I manage to draw down and shoot him. His buddy sticks his hands in the air and starts screaming, 'don't shoot, man!!' Cops arrive, and the second guy says that he and his friend were going into Wal-Mart, when I 'pulled a gun for no reason and started shooting'. When the police asked where the dead guy's gun came from, the surviving skuz says sure, he had a gun, but it was in his pocket and must have dropped out when I 'shot him for no reason'.

Do I still not talk to the cops? Isn't my silence going to be interpreted as my having something to hide? Maybe in theory, one's exercise of one's rights under the V Amendment can't be taken as proof of guilt, but as the cop said near the end of that video, the mere fact that you're sitting in a courtroom with a lawyer next to you, means that a lot of the jury are going to think, 'he must have done something to get busted'.

All this might sound like useless theorizing, but I still remember my sister starting to scream 'he hit me!' when I hadn't raised my hand to her. More importantly, I remember my father's hand boxing my ear, 'cos he took her word, rather than mine.

Sorry ... just musing. Comments ?

[KC5AV]

As a general rule, it would be best to not say anything without a legal representative present. While you may be on firm legal ground, it's best to have a professional there on your side. I have a brother sitting in state prison right now because he was too stupid to invoke his rights. He's been there for 5 years, and has another 3 years to consider how truly stupid he was.
Regardless of legal footing, have a lawyer present before you make any kind of statement to the police.

[Liko81]

like Kerbouchard said, my instructor advised saying "I was in fear for my life".

Those seemed to be the keywords. But yea, might wanna shutty after that.

I just posted this to Two Wheeled Texans (lemme know if I'm breaking any rules by crossposting) ...

Yeah, but what about a citizen-involved shooting?

I ask, 'cos it worries me. I live alone and see no reason why that should change, when I come to Texas. OK, so I shoot a bad guy inside my appartment at three o'clock in the morning, and there's a .38 snubbie lying next to him with his prints on it, and ballistics find that the same weapon was used to shoot a 7-11 check-out operator two days previously, and his ugly mug is on the surveillance camera, showing him pulling the trigger.

In a case like that, I'm cool. Question: do I still not talk to the police?

Now another scenario. By definition, I spend most of my time alone. I'm writing these words alone, I'll be alone when I go out later to do some grocery shopping, and I'll be alone tomorrow morning when I'm in the train on my way to my school. At school, I chat with colleagues and occasionally go for a coffee across the road with one or two of them. At home, friends occasionally come over, or I go to their places. But unlike married men and fathers, I'm alone more than I'm in company.

What happens if I'm coming out of Wal-Mart, I'm carrying, and something bad goes down. Let's say .. um, dunno ..two guys come towards me, one pulls a gun and I manage to draw down and shoot him. His buddy sticks his hands in the air and starts screaming, 'don't shoot, man!!' Cops arrive, and the second guy says that he and his friend were going into Wal-Mart, when I 'pulled a gun for no reason and started shooting'. When the police asked where the dead guy's gun came from, the surviving skuz says sure, he had a gun, but it was in his pocket and must have dropped out when I 'shot him for no reason'.

Do I still not talk to the cops? Isn't my silence going to be interpreted as my having something to hide? Maybe in theory, one's exercise of one's rights under the V Amendment can't be taken as proof of guilt, but as the cop said near the end of that video, the mere fact that you're sitting in a courtroom with a lawyer next to you, means that a lot of the jury are going to think, 'he must have done something to get busted'.

All this might sound like useless theorizing, but I still remember my sister starting to scream 'he hit me!' when I hadn't raised my hand to her. More importantly, I remember my father's hand boxing my ear, 'cos he took her word, rather than mine.

Sorry ... just musing. Comments ?

Well, your dad isn't a jury of your peers. He didn't want justice, just peace and quiet.

More to the point, the fact is that no matter how clear-cut your justification is, no matter how disciplined you were in drawing and firing and how well you aimed, after a shooting you will be riding the biggest adrenaline rush you've ever felt in your life. NOBODY can calmly explain what happened in such a situation, and there are many things you could say that, taken out of context, would negate your justification.

For instance, say you're about to head to bed around midnight when a drunk and/or coked up guy batters down your door looking for your teenage daughter who he saw come home an hour earlier (and 30 minutes after curfew, but that's beside the point by now). He kicks in the door, and for his trouble he gets two blasts of 00 buck from ol' Mossy. Cops show up, you're wired from the experience, your wife and daughter are still in hysterics, and the first thing out of your mouth when they asked what happened was "I didn't want to shoot him". What you meant was closer to "I didn't want to have to shoot him". However, you are now at risk of a manslaughter conviction, because the DA can argue that it was accidental. Accidents cannot be justified; you had to intend to pull that trigger for the purpose of stopping a threat. From your own mouth, you have as good as confessed.

That's why instructors really beat it into students that the only thing they should say is "I was in fear for my life (and/or the lives of my loved ones) and shot to defend against the threat. I will be happy to answer additional questions after I have been checked out by EMS and had an opportunity to consult an attorney". The officers now know why you shot, they have enough information to perform the rest of their job (collecting evidence, getting the coroner to remove the body, taking other statements, etc). If they pressure you, simply repeat that you are not in a proper mental state and have not been advised of your rights and liabilities in this situation and will not answer questions at this time. It is possible that a cop will hassle you, but it's been my experience that officers in most of Texas are pretty courteous and have at least a basic knowledge of when it's a good shoot. A kicked-in door, a guy in his boxers and a T-shirt with a shotgun leaned up next to him, and a guy smelling like booze laying on the porch full of lead shot is pretty much a no-brainer.

[Chemist45]

Massad Ayoob has discussed this topic at length.
His advice is to be the one who calls 911 and tell them as little as possible: There's been a shooting, the location, send and ambulance etc.
Once the police arrive he recommends you say something to the effect of:
"Officer, I'm the one who called you.
He attacked me. There is his gun, knife, club etc.
There are the shell casings.
Those people are witnesses."
While pointing all these things out.
He then recommends you say something along the lines of "I'm sure you understand I want to wait for my lawyer to arrive before I give my full statement."

His point is to help the officers find the evidence and witnesses that will help your case but not to incriminate yourself.

Seems like good advice.

[israel67]

Massad Ayoob has discussed this topic at length.
His advice is to be the one who calls 911 and tell them as little as possible: There's been a shooting, the location, send and ambulance etc.
Once the police arrive he recommends you say something to the effect of:
"Officer, I'm the one who called you.
He attacked me. There is his gun, knife, club etc.
There are the shell casings.
Those people are witnesses."
While pointing all these things out.
He then recommends you say something along the lines of "I'm sure you understand I want to wait for my lawyer to arrive before I give my full statement."

His point is to help the officers find the evidence and witnesses that will help your case but not to incriminate yourself.

Seems like good advice.

Indeed. My big worry is that the adrenaline will make me talk. I had a car crash once when I was a student. Driving past another crash with police cars in attendance, I glanced out of my window at the scene. I looked back ahead and the idiot in front had stopped his car to rubberneck. I hit him. It's my opinion even now that sure, I shouldn't have taken my eyes off the road, but this cretin stopped his car to get a better view of the police and paramedics helping someone injured. But like a fool, I got out of my car and said, 'sorry, man...'

That was it. I'd apologised. Guess whose insurance had to pick up the tab ...

[CHL/LEO]

Guess whose insurance had to pick up the tab ...

I don't think that just because you apologized it was determined to be your fault, and thus your insurance had to pay. In the majority of cases when you hit someone from behind it's going to be your fault. Based upon how you described the incident I can see how your insurance company came to that conclusion.

The answer basically is, be polite, if you believe, you have the discipline to not say to much briefly explain what happened ie. " I was forced to defend myself when he tried to kill me." Let them know who you are and that you want to be cooperative, but need some time to clear your thoughts. Don't incriminate yourself. don't lie. and talk to a lawyer As Soon as Possible. You are better off saying nothing than too much.

Excellent advice.

We as police officers are told to do the exact same thing if we are involved with an on-duty (or off-duty) shooting. You give the first supervisor on the scene a brief overview of what happened so that they can start the investigative process and then you tell them you are waiting for your attorney to arrive. Our association has attorneys on call 24/7 that respond to shootings (or any deadly force encounter or death in custody) that we might be involved in.

We have also been briefed and trained by our attorneys ahead of time regarding exactly what will happen if we're involved in this type of situation. We go through an entire scenario from the time the shooting occurs until the Grand Jury hearing weeks down the road. We are fortunate that we have seasoned attorneys that are completely familiar with this process and have trained us on how to react if we ever find ourselves in such a situation.

When this subject has been brought up previously on here I have advised forum members to be proactive and find an attorney well versed in this type of situation before you actually need one. Telling a LEO that you are not going to say anything until you have an attorney present is one thing, but when they ask you if you've contacted him or her and you state that you don't even have one is another. Being escorted to the police station and then having to flip through a phone book for an attorney is not something that you need to be doing right after a critical event such as this.

My previous advice on this matter still stands. If you don't know an attorney who is competent in this type of situation I recommend that you contact the lawyers that your local LEOs utilize for this situation. Ask your LEOs who their lawyers are and then give them a call. Ask them that if you are ever in a deadly force situation would they represent you. If they will then grab a couple of their business cards and be sure and get their "after hours" phone number in case you have to contact them at 3 AM. Keep a card in your wallet, one in your car and give one to your spouse or significant other. That way when you tell the LEO that upon the advice of your attorney you're going to wait for him or her to arrive before you make a detailed statement. You can then hand them your attorney's card and ask them to please contact them or if you have a cell phone you can do so yourself.

I can't state clearly enough that this is something that you need to prepare for now - not after the fact. I hope that you never have to use it but like insurance, it's good to have it and not need it than the other way around.

[tarkus]

I would make a short statement to police if I shot a criminal in Texas.

Sounds like good advice. I always imagine what would happen here. Guns are illegal, full stop so if you carry one, you're breaking the law. Then one day, you need to use that gun to stop someone killing you. You don't want to harm anyone, you just want to go about your daily life in peace. But someone decided that he wants your wallet to pay for some white powder, and he's got a big Bowie knife that says 'obey or die!'.

You choose to do neither.

In that situation your best action is to leave as soon as possible. Maybe you can leave before shooting the criminal or maybe you have to shoot him before you run away.

If I shot someone in NYC or DC or Chicago or other unAmerican cities, I know the police are willing to violate 2A rights of innocent people, so there's every reason to believe they will just as happily violate my 4A, 5A, 6A and 8A rights if they get the chance. I'm not willing to hang around and find out.

[CHL/LEO]

I would make a short statement to police if I shot a criminal in Texas.

Sounds like good advice. I always imagine what would happen here. Guns are illegal, full stop so if you carry one, you're breaking the law. Then one day, you need to use that gun to stop someone killing you. You don't want to harm anyone, you just want to go about your daily life in peace. But someone decided that he wants your wallet to pay for some white powder, and he's got a big Bowie knife that says 'obey or die!'.

You choose to do neither.

In that situation your best action is to leave as soon as possible. Maybe you can leave before shooting the criminal or maybe you have to shoot him before you run away.

If I shot someone in NYC or DC or Chicago or other unAmerican cities, I know the police are willing to violate 2A rights of innocent people, so there's every reason to believe they will just as happily violate my 4A, 5A, 6A and 8A rights if they get the chance. I'm not willing to hang around and find out.

In that situation your best action is to leave as soon as possible. Maybe you can leave before shooting the criminal or maybe you have to shoot him before you run away.

Tarkus - I hope you're not serious about this horrible advice. I can pretty well assure you that if someone shoots another person, then runs away hoping that no one will discover their actions, and then does in fact get discovered - they will be in serious trouble. It will automatically be assumed that the reason that you ran was because you were in the wrong. Even though you might have been in a position of using justifiable deadly force, the fact that you ran off and didn't report it makes your attorney's job that much harder to defend.

The only time that I would recommend to someone that they leave a shooting scene would be if they thought they were in fear of bodily injury by remaining there. They should go somewhere and call 911 - explain what happened (not why or any details) and tell them where they are currently located and that they will meet the police back at the scene once it's safe and secure for them to do so.

As far as the rest of your diatribe regarding "I know the police are willing to violate 2A rights of innocent people" - I'm not even going to respond to that nonsense.

[57Coastie]

CHL/LEO says,

"Tarkus - I hope you're not serious about this horrible advice. I can pretty well assure you that if someone shoots another person, then runs away hoping that no one will discover their actions, and then does in fact get discovered - they will be in serious trouble. It will automatically be assumed that the reason that you ran was because you were in the wrong. Even though you might have been in a position of using justifiable deadly force, the fact that you ran off and didn't report it makes your attorney's job that much harder to defend.

The only time that I would recommend to someone that they leave a shooting scene would be if they thought they were in fear of bodily injury by remaining there. They should go somewhere and call 911 - explain what happened (not why or any details) and tell them where they are currently located and that they will meet the police back at the scene once it's safe and secure for them to do so.

As far as the rest of your diatribe regarding "I know the police are willing to violate 2A rights of innocent people" - I'm not even going to respond to that nonsense."



The advice given by Tarkus is about the most irresponsible I have seen yet on this forum. It invites the most serious consequences for any reader who should follow it. Furthermore, his comment about the police and the 2A is a telling example of why the 2A is in trouble.

Jim

[flb_78]

As far as the rest of your diatribe regarding "I know the police are willing to violate 2A rights of innocent people" - I'm not even going to respond to that nonsense.

The police in the areas where guns are banned are more then willing to prosecute you.

Just recently in Chicago, many on the police force have been arrested for making false arrests, violating a person's civil rights, and falsifying evidence to get a conviction.

The city of Chicago just lost a lawsuit and has to pay 7.9 million dollars to a woman who pulled an officer from a burning vehicle claiming she stole the officer's firearm and battered the officer. She spent 10 months in jail awaiting trial for these false charges.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/chicag ... n-rescued/

I would have to agree that if you're somewhere where you shouldn't be with a gun and are forced to use it, to leave.

BUT, I would first say, stay away from those areas at all costs.

NOT ALL POLICE ARE LIKE THIS!!! I know this, but some are and we need to stay away from these places.

Just do a Google search for "Chicago police lawsuit" and you will be bombarded with article after article of lawsuits they have lost.

I am sure that in all areas where the 2nd amendment is violated so harshly, you'll also find the police are corrupt.