Interesting Feeding Issue (.45 JHP)

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karl
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Interesting Feeding Issue (.45 JHP)

Post by karl »

My normal range trip follows this outline:

1. Arrive at range and unholster CC gun for range use.
2. Empty one of my SD mags and remove round from chamber.
3. Load and shoot FMJ.
4. Reload SD mag and chamber a round, adding the initial ejected round back in the mag and reholster.

I've been doing this for almost 8 months now but recently noticed my first round of JHP has been forced into the neck of the brass casing. I keep up with my gear so this has happened progressively over the last two trips. Cleaned my gun today and decided to put the round in question in and out of the chamber a few times and, sure enough, it pushed it down even further.

Here's a pic...
Image


Now I know that this isn't the only round that is repeatedly chambered, it usually rotates with the top two, just interesting to see. I think this round will be retiring.

Easy to see is size of the offending round compared to the regular JHP (which happens to be number 2). Not so easy to see is the ridge along the edge, feels pretty pronounced when in my hand. I've never reloaded, but I'm guessing since there are fewer grains there is an empty space that the bullet crept back into. Thoughts?

For reference:
-S&W 1911PD
-Hornady 185 gr XTP in .45 ACP
-Wilson Combat Mag
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere. -Thomas Jefferson
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Excaliber
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Re: Interesting Feeding Issue (.45 JHP)

Post by Excaliber »

karl wrote:My normal range trip follows this outline:

1. Arrive at range and unholster CC gun for range use.
2. Empty one of my SD mags and remove round from chamber.
3. Load and shoot FMJ.
4. Reload SD mag and chamber a round, adding the initial ejected round back in the mag and reholster.

I've been doing this for almost 8 months now but recently noticed my first round of JHP has been forced into the neck of the brass casing. I keep up with my gear so this has happened progressively over the last two trips. Cleaned my gun today and decided to put the round in question in and out of the chamber a few times and, sure enough, it pushed it down even further.

Here's a pic...
Image


Now I know that this isn't the only round that is repeatedly chambered, it usually rotates with the top two, just interesting to see. I think this round will be retiring.

Easy to see is size of the offending round compared to the regular JHP (which happens to be number 2). Not so easy to see is the ridge along the edge, feels pretty pronounced when in my hand. I've never reloaded, but I'm guessing since there are fewer grains there is an empty space that the bullet crept back into. Thoughts?

For reference:
-S&W 1911PD
-Hornady 185 gr XTP in .45 ACP
-Wilson Combat Mag
The condition you describe is potentially dangerous, since firing that round with the projectile seated that deeply reduces the space for the powder, may compress the charge, and increases the pressure needed to move the bullet into the bore. Any one of these may produce an undetermined amount of overpressure which may wreck the gun and injure you.

Here are some methods I've used to avoid this situation:

1. Make a practice of firing the SD magazine contents first in every 4th or 5th range session (best - you'll never experience bullet set back with high quality ammo, and you maintain familiarity with the firing and point of impact characteristics of your SD loads).

2. Unload only the SD rounds in the magazine, replace them with FMJ, and fire off the chambered round first in every range session. (Next best - you'll never see bullet set back, and you maintain some familiarity with firing your SD rounds)

3. Last but not least: Put the chambered round and SD rounds aside in order when you follow your normal range procedure, and load the previously top magazine round into the magazine first, and chamber that round. Remove the magazine and then load the previously chambered round first (which now puts it at the bottom of the magazine stack), the previously bottom round next, the second to bottom round next, etc. This always puts the previously chambered round at the bottom and the top round from the magazine in the chamber. It gives you evenly distributed wear on all the SD rounds. If you're consistent, you could do this 24 or 32 times before each round in an 8 round system would have 3 or 4 chamberings on it, depending on the cutoff point you choose. Most high quality cartridges will tolerate this without bullet setback. At that point fire the entire magazine at your next range session and start over with fresh ammo. If you don't reach this point in six months, it would be a good idea to fire off the entire load and do a total ammo refresh anyway.



You could come up with more similar variations of these practices, but the idea is to prevent one round from being repeatedly chambered and ejected. Not only will it eventually loosen the crimp and result in the bullet setback issue you've seen, but the action of the extractor will chew up the cartridge rim. If it goes far enough, this may interfere with the extractor's grip on the round and may result in a failure to extract at an inopportune time. (If you examine the rim of the cartridge with the set back projectile in your photo, you'll find the rim has small gouges and nicks all around.)
Excaliber

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Interesting Feeding Issue (.45 JHP)

Post by The Annoyed Man »

It's called "bullet set-back" and .40 S&W and .45 ACP cartridges are potentially susceptible to it if they are not crimped.

Whenever I eject a self-defense cartridge from one of my 1911s, I also eject 3 or 4 rounds from the magazine. I then load the most recently chambered cartridge back into the magazine first, the others on top of it, and use one of them to chamber a round, and then top off the magazine with the remaining "fresh" round. It isn't going to completely eliminate the problem, but it will greatly delay the point at which it becomes an issue for any one cartridge.

And then, periodically, I shoot the "used" self-defense cartridges at the range, mostly to keep myself familiar with how they feel when fired, but also partly to expend any that might have set back even the tiniest bit. The last thing I want to happen in an actual shooting scenario is to experience a KABOOM.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Interesting Feeding Issue (.45 JHP)

Post by The Annoyed Man »

AndyC wrote:They do that with repeated loadings, yup - you can fix it if you have a bullet-puller and a loading-press to reseat the bullet.
...and you don't even have to pull the bullet all the way out. If you use the bullet puller a little more gently, you can work the bullet forward until it is just past the desired overall cartridge length (determined by measuring the others in the batch), and then seat the bullet to that depth. That eliminates losing any of the powder charge if the bullet pops all the way out.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

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Re: Interesting Feeding Issue (.45 JHP)

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

My first and second self-defense rounds get a lot of cycling in the classes I teach. It's not uncommon for me to do it 3 or 4 times in a class. (Not NRA classes; we can't have live ammo in the classroom.)

In addition to bullet setback, you also need to watch for burrs on the case rim caused by the extractor. It doesn't happen with just a few extractions, but if you do eject and reload the same round numerous times you will start to feel burrs. These burrs are common with reloaded ammo and they have to be pretty pronounced to cause a feeding problem, but I don't accept any flaws in my self-defense ammo.

Chas.
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Re: Interesting Feeding Issue (.45 JHP)

Post by Ol Zeke »

I try to use the same Mags that I carry, for practice. This way I'm emptying each magazine (with my thumb, not by jacking the slide) every range trip. This helps rotate the ammo randomly and prevents any one round from being chambered repeatedly. I also line them up on the table, prior to reloading the magazine, and inspect for differences in cartridge length and burs from an overly agressive extractor. I go ahead and fire rounds that have a noticeable (but not drastic) difference and replace with new rounds.
I've also noticed that some manufacturer's rounds are more susceptible to this than others. I don't remember which because I carry Hornady in all now because they seem less susceptable (IMO) and I like their ammo. :tiphat:
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Re: Interesting Feeding Issue (.45 JHP)

Post by gemini »

Excaliber: "1. Make a practice of firing the SD magazine contents first in every 4th or 5th range session (best - you'll never experience bullet set back with high quality ammo, and you maintain familiarity with the firing and point of impact characteristics of your SD loads)."

This is my personal practice, and IMHO the best advice given so far in this post. It's a win, win, win: Check SD magazine for function
through actual use, helps to avoid the problem of bullet set back or keeping up with round rotation in the SD magazine, keeps you accurate with your chosen SD round.
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karl
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Re: Interesting Feeding Issue (.45 JHP)

Post by karl »

Thanks for the feedback, I'll bring the rotation into my routine.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere. -Thomas Jefferson
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