Red Jacket Loses FFL

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Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby HotLeadSolutions » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:33 pm

My wife was telling me about a story she read online today that said Red Jacket Firearms lost their FFL in October due to 10 missing weapons discovered during a routine ATF inspection. I am away from home and can't research it now...anyone else heard this?
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby Skiprr » Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:03 pm

The December ATF list shows them as having an FFL valid through November 1, 2013: http://www.atf.gov/about/foia/ffl-list.html. But I know of no other particulars.
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby SC1903A3 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:27 pm

"I will, if I have to, I guess"
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby Carry-a-Kimber » Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:39 pm

If only the FCC would pull their show. :leaving
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby HotLeadSolutions » Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:56 pm

Carry-a-Kimber wrote:If only the FCC would pull their show. :leaving



Amen to that brother!
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby tbrown » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:00 pm

Carry-a-Kimber wrote:If only the FCC would pull their show. :leaving

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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby texasmusic » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:07 pm

If only... :mrgreen:
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby G.A. Heath » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:13 pm

The truth about guns is a poor resource to reference. for a long list of reasons. One line from the article on their website is:
We’re sure that the Haydens avoiding a frog march and criminal charges had nothing at all to do with the fact that they have a television show.

but the issues happened in 2009, the show didn't air until 2011.

The truth of the matter is that the "missing" guns could be nothing more than firearms that 4473s were filled out and filed for but the staff forgot to record in the bound book, or an ATF agent (or someone else) spilled their coffee on the book rendering the disposition column illegible. If they are using an electronic bound book then its possible that something else happened. Can you imagine any other business facing the government shutting them down over "loosing" ten items? Imagine Walmart, convenience stores, your local grocery store, a local hardware store, apple computer, or anyone else facing that kind of potential trouble.

Now about the show: I hate the show, I hate the drama, I hate the "stars", I hate the lack of safety they show, but I love the fact that it is getting people interested in the shooting sports.
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby CEOofEVIL » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:19 pm

Heh, I'll go against the grains by saying I like the show.

But, I'm biased. Will Hayden has been an outspoken supporter of the Saiga 12 and the Saiga line of weapons in general, and short of Tromix themselves I couldn't think of anyone else I'd rather send my S12 to be worked on by. Having seen that he takes care of his customers and delivers on a rock solid product, I want to support him however I can, since he's supported the Saiga community so much. Maybe its my age - being among the younger generation (Mid-late 20's), I'm very used to "Reality TV", though I generally don't care for it. I'll admit, there are a few shows I like that fall under the reality category:

- Top Shot
- Alaska State Troopers
- Flying Wild Alaska
- Border Wars
- Holmes on Homes

Sons' of Guns falls into the above category, but perhaps just barely (one could argue that Top Shot and SOG belong in thier own category). My respect for RJF aside, it's just something I find interesting. Mind you there is a difference between the types of Reality shows I watch compared to the absolute crap like "16 and pregnant" or "Jersey Shore", or "Pawn Stars". I can see why folks dislike SOG, and I can't really disagree with some of the reasoning that is given when asked why them don't like it, but some folks simply give the answer of "They make all gun owners look like hicks who want to blow things up", which in my mind isn't the most thoughful or powerful reason one can give. No, I don't really care if one of his employee's wants to date his daughter - it departs from the whole "GUN" portion of the show, and this is where the show steps into the more widely accepted "reality TV" format. At the same time, having to watch the relations of people that I generally share interests with (GUNS!) doesn't really bother me all that much. Maybe some of it is staged - maybe some isn't - I don't put a lot of weight into that. Anyone that has followed Top Shot seriously know that what is aired, in no way actually represents the real events. I've heard the complaints of "What they show isn't gun smithing" from some folks - fair enough on that. On the flip side, I don't really care to watch someone bed the action of a bolt rifle, checker the stock of a hunting O/U or cast the chamber on an unknown type of Mauser. Having a show that demonstrates the in's and out's of tuning the gas system of a SBS'ed Saiga 12 wouldn't be terribly interesting to some folks either, nor would the process of showing a CNC machine run the entirety of it's magic to create a pistol slide (even though I might find that interesting). We, as gun owners need to condsider what makes interesting TV to a the newer generation of possible gun owners whose only regular encounter with "guns" are from Call of Duty or Battlefield games. My theory is that if people (younger or older) are interested in firearms because of a video game or movie - so be it! It's simply up to the responsible portion of gun owners like ourselves to show the newbies the way to properly interact, and thus learn about shooting and firearms. In my honest opinion, show's like Top Shot, Sons of Guns, and even American Guns (Which I absolutly despise) cater not mainly to current Firearms Enthusiasts, but to those whom have had very little interaction or knowledge of guns. In my mind, if a show can spark the interest of safe and responsible firearm ownership to a newcomer, so be it!

No television show will EVER properly introduce a newcomer to the world of Firearms. There is simply no replacement for a responsible gun owner showing a new shooter the ropes, regardless of how hard the show tries to educate the viewer on the principals or cornerstones of gun ownership. Again, this is where the friendly Gun Community is supposed to come in and welcome others into our sport and, should they choose, our lifestyle. At any rate, I digress... My point is that I don't think the show does such a dis-service to the Gun community that it warrents being hailed as a disgrace. Remember that our culture is still one of folks from mixed backgrounds or interests.

As far as the whole FFL Debacle, it supposedly happened a bit back. Not a whole lot has been released on it, and frankly I don't want to speculate on anything. Many folks have only posted information on the incident from a well known hollywood tabloid website - which, to say the least (in my opinion) should draw a tiny bit of question to it's credibility. If RJF was found to be in violation, I trust that the proper course of action was taken by both the "Gub-mint" and the business itself. The Firearms Community certainly doesn't need people losing firearms or not adhering to federal law, so regardless of whether I like a company or not, I hope that our Justice System keeps its wits about it to make sure we can as many crooked gun dealers as possible.

Just my 2 cents, of course, and I mean no offense to anyone that might feel different to my stated opinions. :patriot:

Afterthought: Since the TV show post production/editors make tons of changes to footage that was aired (Which can result in some pretty dumb and unsavory looking practices), I wish that the show would put a disclaimer at the end that says something like "Due to editing, some processes or safeguards may not have been shown". Holmes on Homes does this at the end of each episode.
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby VMI77 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:27 pm

CEOofEVIL wrote:Heh, I'll go against the grains by saying I like the show.

But, I'm biased. Will Hayden has been an outspoken supporter of the Saiga 12 and the Saiga line of weapons in general, and short of Tromix themselves I couldn't think of anyone else I'd rather send my S12 to be worked on by. Having seen that he takes care of his customers and delivers on a rock solid product, I want to support him however I can, since he's supported the Saiga community so much. Maybe its my age - being among the younger generation (Mid-late 20's), I'm very used to "Reality TV", though I generally don't care for it. I'll admit, there are a few shows I like that fall under the reality category:

- Top Shot
- Alaska State Troopers
- Flying Wild Alaska
- Border Wars
- Holmes on Homes

Sons' of Guns falls into the above category, but perhaps just barely (one could argue that Top Shot and SOG belong in thier own category). My respect for RJF aside, it's just something I find interesting. Mind you there is a difference between the types of Reality shows I watch compared to the absolute crap like "16 and pregnant" or "Jersey Shore", or "Pawn Stars". I can see why folks dislike SOG, and I can't really disagree with some of the reasoning that is given when asked why them don't like it, but some folks simply give the answer of "They make all gun owners look like hicks who want to blow things up", which in my mind isn't the most thoughful or powerful reason one can give. No, I don't really care if one of his employee's wants to date his daughter - it departs from the whole "GUN" portion of the show, and this is where the show steps into the more widely accepted "reality TV" format. At the same time, having to watch the relations of people that I generally share interests with (GUNS!) doesn't really bother me all that much. Maybe some of it is staged - maybe some isn't - I don't put a lot of weight into that. Anyone that has followed Top Shot seriously know that what is aired, in no way actually represents the real events. I've heard the complaints of "What they show isn't gun smithing" from some folks - fair enough on that. On the flip side, I don't really care to watch someone bed the action of a bolt rifle, checker the stock of a hunting O/U or cast the chamber on an unknown type of Mauser. Having a show that demonstrates the in's and out's of tuning the gas system of a SBS'ed Saiga 12 wouldn't be terribly interesting to some folks either, nor would the process of showing a CNC machine run the entirety of it's magic to create a pistol slide (even though I might find that interesting). We, as gun owners need to condsider what makes interesting TV to a the newer generation of possible gun owners whose only regular encounter with "guns" are from Call of Duty or Battlefield games. My theory is that if people (younger or older) are interested in firearms because of a video game or movie - so be it! It's simply up to the responsible portion of gun owners like ourselves to show the newbies the way to properly interact, and thus learn about shooting and firearms. In my honest opinion, show's like Top Shot, Sons of Guns, and even American Guns (Which I absolutly despise) cater not mainly to current Firearms Enthusiasts, but to those whom have had very little interaction or knowledge of guns. In my mind, if a show can spark the interest of safe and responsible firearm ownership to a newcomer, so be it!

No television show will EVER properly introduce a newcomer to the world of Firearms. There is simply no replacement for a responsible gun owner showing a new shooter the ropes, regardless of how hard the show tries to educate the viewer on the principals or cornerstones of gun ownership. Again, this is where the friendly Gun Community is supposed to come in and welcome others into our sport and, should they choose, our lifestyle. At any rate, I digress... My point is that I don't think the show does such a dis-service to the Gun community that it warrents being hailed as a disgrace. Remember that our culture is still one of folks from mixed backgrounds or interests.

As far as the whole FFL Debacle, it supposedly happened a bit back. Not a whole lot has been released on it, and frankly I don't want to speculate on anything. Many folks have only posted information on the incident from a well known hollywood tabloid website - which, to say the least (in my opinion) should draw a tiny bit of question to it's credibility. If RJF was found to be in violation, I trust that the proper course of action was taken by both the "Gub-mint" and the business itself. The Firearms Community certainly doesn't need people losing firearms or not adhering to federal law, so regardless of whether I like a company or not, I hope that our Justice System keeps its wits about it to make sure we can as many crooked gun dealers as possible.

Just my 2 cents, of course, and I mean no offense to anyone that might feel different to my stated opinions. :patriot:

Afterthought: Since the TV show post production/editors make tons of changes to footage that was aired (Which can result in some pretty dumb and unsavory looking practices), I wish that the show would put a disclaimer at the end that says something like "Due to editing, some processes or safeguards may not have been shown". Holmes on Homes does this at the end of each episode.


I've only seen the first season on Netflix, but I like it too, and for some of the same reasons as you do, and I'm an old man. It's also about the only gun focused show my wife likes.
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby ddurkof » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:40 pm

I too like the show. And I will admit I like to watch things go "boom" and "bang" at high rates of fire. Does it show gun owners in the greatest light? No, but I have seen a number of these characters at every gun show that I have been to since the early 1970s. Is there too much drama? Yes, but sex sells and what ever sells makes the show money is what they are going to do.

Did they screw up with their tracking of weapons? I don't know, but BATFE felt they had enough evidence to take administrative action against them removing their firearm's licenses. They did allow Will and Stephanie to continue to work at the business, so there must not have been any criminal intent.

While some of my friends in to firearms hate the show, I tell them if it bothers you that much don't watch the show. If they really don't like it then complain to the advertisers.

Let's face it, watching a master gunsmith who really knows his business may interest a few of us, but good gunsmith machining is exact, tedious and pretty boring to watch much longer than ten minutes for most of the viewing public.

SOG is no more a Treaties on Gunsmiths than The Kardashians is a show on the prim and proper way a young lady should carrier herself in public.

Put it into the proper context and stop worrying about it.
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby adamcsills » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:45 pm

Vince has posted some details on arfcom. He left the store, received a payout because he, Charlie and [someone else] were the owners of the LLC that owned the current FFL that was created after Will lost his FFL. Vince and a friend have created a new company: Mesa Kinetic Research (http://www.mesakineticresearch.com/).
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby n5wd » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:05 am

HotLeadSolutions wrote:
Carry-a-Kimber wrote:If only the FCC would pull their show. :leaving



Amen to that brother!



Oh, so NOW you want government intervening in free choice?

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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby Dave2 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:06 am

Seems like if Vince was in charge of maintaining Red Jacket's FFL, Will would be saying "<angry>VINCENT!!!</angry" a bit less...

Or maybe being a "big TV star" really has gone to his head.
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Re: Red Jacket Loses FFL

Postby mrvmax » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:22 am

FYI, from what I have seen on other forums Will and his daughter no longer have FFL's. Due to the 10 missing guns they cut a deal with the ATF, the business/FFL is in the name of three other people.
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