Beware Fraud at Well Known Gun Auction Site !!!

[drjoker]

Beware,

I bought a gun on a well-known gun auction site (NOT gunsamerica but another one) and the seller fraudulently took my money order but did not ship the gun. So, I filed a "F" rating for the seller and posted what happened on the website. Well, this gun auction site sure knows that their sellers are the ones paying the rent because they DELETED my "F" rating and description of the perpetrated fraud. The ratings of the gun dealers are FAKE because the negative ratings are DELETED. I invite you to buy guns ONLY FTF. DO NOT send a money order like I did. I was stupid, but I learned the hard way how to be smart about it. I invite you to learn from my mistake. Better yet, DO NOT buy from this gun auction site AT ALL. Buy only from Texas CHL Forum, FTF.

Since I am suing them, my lawyer said I cannot post the name of the gun auction site (don't ask), but I have never been ripped off by gunsamerica. If you need to use an auction site, use them, but NOT the other site!

This really sucks. I have been buying from this gun auction site for years, but I have never been ripped off like this before! I invite you to try this: go to a gun auction site. Look up a busy vendor that gets lots of sales and look at their rating. If they have a recent rating that is negative, check back in 2 weeks. Look and... voila! They've DELETED the negative rating! They will delete any "F" ratings that state you sent a money order but did not receive a gun. They only leave "F" ratings that allege stupid stuff that only serve to make the complainer look bad. For example, they'll leave the "F" rating where the buyer rants and complains aimlessly, but they'll delete the well written description that says, "I paid with a money order but the gun was never received. Buyers beware!"

BOTTOM LINE: DO NOT buy from the other gun auction site!!! Texas CHL forum is cool. Gunsamerica is cool. Davidsons is cool. Dallasguns.com is cool. You know who sucks! Funny thing is, I've bought from these guys before (many times). I think that it's probably an honest mistake. They probably were too busy (these guys move a huge volume of guns) and just cashed my money order and forgot to ship it. I've tried to contact them many times, but now, they won't answer the phone because I was "rude" to them. I did not cuss nor use foul language. I also did not yell at them. Although I did call them many times, but that's expected because I sent them a big lump of money and got nada, zip, nothing in return! Because I've been calling them every other day, now they won't even answer the phone! Every time I call them, they said that they were too busy to look into the matter for me so they won't check their records to see that I've paid and they have not shipped me the gun. It has been 6 weeks and still no gun! BTW, the fraudulent gun dealer is in the DFW metroplex.

I invite you to learn from my mistakes because it will be expensive to learn from your own mistakes.

It sucks to be cheated,


P.S. Please share with us your negative experiences with online gun auctions. I invite you to post what happened to help fellow 2nd amendment enthusiasts avoid the trap that you and I stepped into. Also, you might be eligible for damages as part of a class-action lawsuit. Thank you for posting your negative experiences with online gun auctions.

I had the same experience from a private gunbroker seller and with that website several years ago.
Stay away from Gunbroker.
Lesson learned.

[shortysboy09]

I can't stand people that steal from others. I am glad to hear your'e going after them for your money. Do you actually have to go after the site or the seller?

[JNMAR]

Well I don't do online gun shopping and have never really considered buying and paying for a weapon sight unseen. Hmmmmmm, I noticed that you didn't mention GunBroker.com in the cool list...perhaps that was just an oversight?.

[drjoker]

No, I'm not "going after them for your (my) money." I'm actually paying more in lawyers' fees than the price of the gun (many times more). I am doing this because they've made me really angry. I am actually not angry at the dealer. Upset, but not angry. I am angry at the gun auction site because the negative ratings are the only way a potential buyer has of knowing whether a dealer is legit or not. Deleting negative ratings compromises the whole integrity of the website. It costs more to buy a gun from a gun auction site than a free site like this forum. However, people are willing to pay that premium because they believe that the dealers are legit since people who are ripped off have the recourse of the negative rating. If the gun auction site doesn't bring peace of mind and integrity to the deal, then why are we paying for this premium? Why not just use the free bulletin boards to sell your guns? That's why I am angry. The auction site has compromised the one thing that made them a valuable resource.

Edit: my previous post makes it sound like I called them hundreds of times, but I've only called them 4 times. After that, they have not answered any of my calls so I have given up calling them. I have not called them at all after 1 week. It has been 6 weeks, still no gun.

P.S. If you really have to use the gun auction site because you want to buy something extremely rare, then be sure the seller has 0% unsatisfied customers. Look around, there are some dealers on this site that has over 1000 customers with zero negative ratings. A 1% unsatisfied customer rating is deceiving since they DELETE negative ratings. That 1% unsatisfied customers is just the tip of the iceberg. If you have to use someone that has a 1% or more unsatisfied customer rating due to the gun that you want being extremely rare and you've been looking for it forever, then be sure to use an escrow service. I know that it costs more, but believe me, it's worth it. Since the gun auction site's integrity is compromised, I do NOT suggest that you use the escrow service that they recommend. Use another. If the seller is unwilling to use an escrow service then walk away. Remember, there's a reason why they refuse to use escrow. The reason is probably that they're not legit. No gun is worth the headache that I'm going through right now.

[MechAg94]

I thought I had always heard to use USPS money orders and supposedly they would or could help you out with this stuff.

[OldCannon]

Anytime you buy online, you risk a fraudulent transaction. Even through Amazon (I had a buyer once try to defraud me through Amazon).

I've bought and sold guns through GunBroker.com, and it's true the risk was always there, just as somebody buying guns from me took a risk.

I _do_ think there's something wrong when a seller can delete legitimate negative feedback about their service. I know that if I saw so much as a single, "I bought a gun from this person and didn't get it", I wouldn't buy from them. I verified this on GunBroker.com today and I intend to take the matter up with them. I recommend everybody else that patronizes GunBroker do the same. As a seller, I should have the right to post a follow-up comment about any buyer's comments, but I shouldn't have the ability to artificially inflate my ratings just by deleting negative comments.

If you're referring to Gunbroker.com (and I know you can't confirm or deny), they DO have a buyer protection system (http://www.gunbroker.com/User/FraudClaimProcess.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). However, I always recommend you purchase with a credit card [not a debit card!](even though it often bumps your price up by 3%), because the CC company can come down like the hammer of God on them. _If_ you are very confident that the seller is trustworthy, then you can pay for it with a money order via the US Post Office. I don't think I'd ever do it any other way, personally.

[Gearheart]

I was under the impression that you just have to take the stub, from the money order, back to the post office, and file a claim, if this happens.

I should have known that it's never that simple.

[cowboymd]

I'm having trouble understanding why your going after the website. The seller is who stole from you. The website was just the tool the seller used to rob you. Just as the person using the gun (tool) to rob is the problem, not the gun. Seems to me you should be going after the thief not the tool.

[The Annoyed Man]

This is just my 2¢, and it is worth about exactly that, but in my inconsequential opinion, 4 unanswered phone calls is not a good reason to get lawyered up. I agree with your frustration, and it certainly sounds like this dealer is not behaving ethically, but there are better ways to handle this. For example, you don't mention if the seller is out of state or not, but certainly if they are in Texas, the cost of getting in your car - even to drive all the way across the state - and walking into the business with your proof in hand of their failure to deliver would A) get you the gun; B) get around the phone stonewalling; C) cost less than a lawyer; D) take less time than a lawsuit; and E) give you the opportunity to confront (in a polite and civil way) somebody in upper management to ensure that their company doesn't do something like this again.

If they fail to comply, you still don't have to call a lawyer. Instead, phone the BATF, and tell the BATF that this vendor has logged a fraudulent firearms transaction which never resulted in the transfer of the firearm in question from their possession to yours. In today's political climate (alleged illegal guns being sold to Mexican cartels, etc.), you can count on the BATF's willingness to jump right on it. Make that phone call from the vendor's location, within earshot of the manager who won't give you satisfaction. Ask for a BATF officer to come to the scene while you are there, to help get the paperwork straightened out. If the vendor cannot A) prove that they shipped the gun, and B) provide a recognized carrier's proof of delivery with your signature on it, they are going to be waist deep in the kimchee with the BATF. No firearms distributor wants that kind of attention.

That will certainly cost you less and produce more effective results than filing a lawsuit. You can always get lawyered up and go to court if that avenue of endeavor fails to produce results, but I don't think you'll have to do it. No offense meant to the lawyers on this board, but it is my opinion that a lawsuit should be the avenue of last resort, not the first. We are too litigious as a society. There are often better, and more efficient ways of handling things, and if those other attempts go bust, then you can still seek legal redress through the courts. When you cool down a bit and think about it, do you really want the courts involved in your gun possession matters? Try something else first.

[ELB]

I am no lawyer, which is why I too would go the lawyer route if I were going to pursue anything beyond the phone call; frankly, I think TAM's advice is not good.

You are in a legal dispute, and you are not an expert in this. What seems logical and righteous in a common sense manner is not necessarily the most tactically smart path legally. For example, confronting the dealer face-to-face might work if he is in fact a conscientious sort who just made a mistake; but if not, it is your word against his and his employees when he calls the cops about the angry man in his gunshop threatening him (I would at least record any face-to-face interaction, and have a witness or two of my own). You weren't threatening? sez you. His perception, first one to call the cops is the victim, etc Any dealer sleazy enough to rip you off for your money order is unlikely to be above embellishing his account about you to the cops if you show up in his face. This might be an ulikely scenario, but if it goes this way the consequences are unhappy for you.

Likewise, accusing an FFL what is sounds like a crime to the BATFE -- you better be able to back this up with enough evidence. Do you know what constitutes a fraudulent firearms log transaction? Do you in fact know for yourself, and can cite chapter and verse, that is what happened? Do you open yourself up to someone claiming that you made a false report to the BATFE? Even if the dealer cashed your moneyorder or check or whatever, if it turns out that the gun is still lawfully accounted for, even it it hasn't shipped, are you now open to a lawsuit by the dealer against you for falsely making a complaint to the BATFE? If I were a FFL and someone made what I think is a spurious (or unprovable) complaint against me, I would certainly consider legal retaliation.

Rather than directly charge manipulation of the firearms logs, the most I would do is call the BATFE, explain the situation (money paid, no gun delivered) and let them figure out if a firearms law is broken.

Let your lawyer guide you as to what is legal, what is possible, and what is likely to be successful, both in dealing with the dealer and the online auction site. You don't like his answer, find another lawyer and see if you get something similar. Certainly deleting negative reviews from transactions is unethical -- does it also violate its own stated terms of service? Is there any business statute or regulation that this violates? Again it is a lawyer who deals in business transactions that is going to know this.

Finally, in the non-legal arena, the best route may be reporting your evidence (eg. screen shots of negative reviews that can no longer be found) to some of the gun bloggers and find one them interested in it. Somebody like Sebastian or Dave Hardy, with a big megaphone, is more likely to get attention to the matter.

I hate it that the litigious route is so prevalent to, but remember just because you decide to forego it doesn't mean the other guy will. Remember, the key objective in a self-defense confrontation is to NOT GET YOURSELF HURT. Hurting the other guy is secondary, although often the means to achieve the first objective. Good rule for any other kind of confrontation.

[MechAg94]

Have you tried sending a letter to the FFL certfied with delivery confirmation or return receipt? Name your issue and provide copies and ask for a written response. I would think you would need to do that before resorting to the courts.

[tiger1873]

One particular auction site with broker in it is a scam. They will do anything to protect sellers that are defrauding. I avoid them completely now better deals elsewhere. They usually delete negs and will ban the buyer from there site. The first thing I noticed is a lot shill bidding going on there as well from certain dealers. It usually looked the other way since they pay the bills. I noticed that first with certain sellers on the site listed with no reserve. It's easy to spot when you see the same dealer always get higher bids then everyone else. Sure reputation can help but not every-time.

My thing is with all online auctions the sellers need to contact me before I send them any money even G-B has that in the rules. I usually send a couple of emails requesting totals of what I owe. Of course I had one seller who didn't contact me for a month the only way he contacted me was though neg feedback. What did that auction site do to me they closed my account over this. A lot sellers on there will back out of a deal if it's too low and they look the other way. I protested them over that and they told me I was in the wrong and flat was abusive to me and told me I was banned for life. They also still send me junk mail. I had 12-14 good transactions with no issues except this seller. If they don't want my money that is fine there is plenty of places to buy from. I found most of the good sellers on that large site are on gunsamerica or auctionarms anyways plus the prices are more legit.

[Oldgringo]

One particular auction site with broker in it is a scam. They will do anything to protect sellers that are defrauding. I avoid them completely now better deals elsewhere. They usually delete negs and will ban the buyer from there site. The first thing I noticed is a lot shill bidding going on there as well from certain dealers. It usually looked the other way since they pay the bills. I noticed that first with certain sellers on the site listed with no reserve. It's easy to spot when you see the same dealer always get higher bids then everyone else. Sure reputation can help but not every-time.

My thing is with all online auctions the sellers need to contact me before I send them any money even G-B has that in the rules. I usually send a couple of emails requesting totals of what I owe. Of course I had one seller who didn't contact me for a month the only way he contacted me was though neg feedback. What did that auction site do to me they closed my account over this. A lot sellers on there will back out of a deal if it's too low and they look the other way. I protested them over that and they told me I was in the wrong and flat was abusive to me and told me I was banned for life. They also still send me junk mail. I had 12-14 good transactions with no issues except this seller. If they don't want my money that is fine there is plenty of places to buy from. I found most of the good sellers on that large site are on gunsamerica or auctionarms anyways plus the prices are more legit.

Name names...if you have names.

[Oldgringo]

....I bought a gun on a well-known gun auction site (NOT gunsamerica but another one) and the seller fraudulently took my money order but did not ship the gun...

It's sad that your money is tied up and you're without your gun and thank you for alerting the forum to this presently unnamed scam.

OTOH, congratulations are in order for apparently persuading your wife that you can have a gun. We hope that this will all work itself out in your favor and that justice will be served.

[G.A. Heath]

So you sent them a money order, I assume the money order was sent via USPS? If that is the case your lawyer should advise you on how contact the post master general's office and report this as a case of mail fraud. I assume that you have taken the money order receipt/stub in and check to see if it has been cashed.