What would you have done?

[fishman]

Well, to be honest I'm not sure what I'd do. Unless I'm right there I guess you never know. I just don't think I can watch a woman in a choke hold without doing something.

[seamusTX]

You won't often see me write this kind of thing: Given the scenario presented, a lunatic strangling a woman, he would get a punch to the temple followed by a generous helping of pepper spray. Mr. Tire Iron would be there if that didn't do the job.

I think there's no legitimate legal question about the level of force used to stop a man from choking a woman. This is not like slapping or shoving. It could result in death in the time it takes to place a call to 911—which, I might add, sometimes gets overloaded in Houston.

Shooting lunatics is problematic. They seem to develop posthumous fan clubs. Ask Harold Fish.

Also it is very difficult to shoot the perpetrator in a close dynamic situation and avoid collateral damage.

I would not grapple with anyone. It's too risky. Even if the guy does not have chemically assisted strength, he could stick a knife in my guts.

- Jim

[karder]

Shooting lunatics is problematic. They seem to develop posthumous fan clubs.

I've noticed that trend too.

[seamusTX]

It really is a problem. Shooting an unarmed man never looks good in retrospect, however justified it may have been under the circumstances. Prosecutors, grand juries, and courts react to public opinion, even if they are not supposed to.

Jurors in the Casey Anthony trial have received death threats after finding her not guilty of murder. That factoid is going to be in the minds of some jurors in future cases.

Deadly force is deadly force, but there is a subjective difference between using a weapon recognized as such versus an improvised tool.

- Jim

[fickman]

Hard to say. . .

I'd go with two assumptions to start that are not universally true, but would inform my actions:
1. She will pass out before she dies, and there will be a small (but real) gap in time between those two events. At the moment I see her stop breathing, close her eyes, or show signs of incapacitation, I will rapidly escalate my response.
2. I'm not confident in my ability to shoot a man struggling with a hostage in this manner (close enough to choke her) unless my barrel is inches away. From even 5' away, I probably wouldn't pull the trigger. Even if I think I have a clear shot, he could jerk her into a shield position as I pull the trigger. (I guess we don't know if he had her from behind with his arm or if he was face-to-face with her using his hand. The former is the situation where I wouldn't use my firearm.)

Depending on available angles of approach, his awareness of me, and his size and physical appearance - I might be a deterrent just by approaching him aggressively. If I can find a bat, club, tire iron, etc., I'll approach with that ready to use it. My hesitation with using my hands is that I'm not really keen on getting AIDS right now (or ever), but if she was dying, I'd probably have to risk it.

If she shows signs of losing consciousness I'd charge with a weapon or my hands (depending on the assessment I'd made).

If he presents a weapon at anytime, I'd draw. If she's still conscious, I'd command him to stop while looking for a clean shot. If she was losing consciousness, I'd become more proactive and approach and fire as soon as I'm confident I'll not hit the hostage.

*Armchair QB disclaimer. I might curl up into the fetal position and suck my thumb. I'll train and prepare to engage properly, but I don't want this to come across as bravado - I won't know unless it happens, which I hope it doesn't.

[philip964]

Hmmm.

Story in the paper today in the USAtoday about a crazy young man (36) who lived on the street. His dad was always worried about him. Didn't take his medicine. Police were called to the scene of cars being broken into. Ran from police when they wanted to search his backpack.

Police could not subdue him with six shots from the tazer. They ended up beating him, but he died. Caught on video by a passerby and six police officers have now all been suspended. This is in CA which makes it worse for the police. Anyway story was written from the side of the grieving father (who is probably now sueing).

This post sort of paints a different picture of a crazy street person. One that is not as sympathetic.

Police have a tough job.

[C-dub]

So many options.

1. Tell the woman you're sorry and pepper spray him anyway. He'll let go and even if she gets a bit too she'll live.

2. Forcibly remove his arms from around the woman's neck.

3. Call 911 and talk to him to try and keep him from hurting the woman.

Okay, well, apparently there are only three reasonable ones.

[seamusTX]

Story in the paper today in the USAtoday about a crazy young man (36) who lived on the street....Police could not subdue him with six shots from the tazer. They ended up beating him, but he died.

There's a big difference between stealing junk from cars and strangling a real live woman.

That said, everyone (except the Salvation Army) seems to despise homeless mentally ill people until they get killed. Then they have thousands of friends.

- Jim

[Beiruty]

Oh, If I have access to Kimber pepper blaster, I will use 1 shot or if needed the second shot of that extreme hot stuff.

[Oldgringo]

Well, to be honest I'm not sure what I'd do...

Me either.

[mamabearCali]

So many options.

1. Tell the woman you're sorry and pepper spray him anyway. He'll let go and even if she gets a bit too she'll live.

2. Forcibly remove his arms from around the woman's neck.

3. Call 911 and talk to him to try and keep him from hurting the woman.

Okay, well, apparently there are only three reasonable ones.

All of these starting at #1 and working downward.

[jocat54]

I can't just sit there and watch a person be strangled to death and just dial 911. I have to vote with the remove his hands from her neck and then call 911. It helps if several people remove his hands from her neck at the same time.

"all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing"
This is what I hope I would do.

[AustinBoy]

LCP in my pocket, pepper spray in the glove compartment.

Would definitely go with pepper spray.

But, if things get out of control, could always go with the LCP.

[Aggiedad]

What would I do? I don't know unless I was there at the time as there area too many variables to make a determination from the comfort of my chair at home. Variables such as:
1. We don't KNOW that the bad guy was choking the woman ... the original notice said the badguy had "his hand around her neck". That does not mean he was cutting off blood supply or air supply. I'd need to SEE the woman's face and body language to make a decision.
2. Homeless or not, this could have been a domestic dispute ... We've all heard examples in CHL classes about CHL holders intervening in a man/woman assault only to have the man & woman turn on the CHL holder.
3. Does the homeless guy have a knife or other weapon that I don't know about?

From what was presented here, I think it would be best to be a good witness and be standing by ready to take action if the conflict escalates.

[seamusTX]

We don't know anything beyond what is in this sketchy second-hand e-mail. We're all making assumptions.

How did anyone know it was a homeless man? Obviously it was impossible to know whether he had a fixed residence. "Homeless" has become a synonym for disheveled, unkempt, and dirty—in other words, a bum. (In fact, there are homeless people that you would never know are homeless. Some have jobs.)

We have no idea who the woman was, either. She might have been on her way to work at 7 a.m., or she might have been another street person.

We don't know whether "putting his hand on her neck" meant a simple assault or strangulation. If it was the latter, it really is necessary to act quickly to prevent serious injury or death. The danger is not only suffocation but a crushed trachea or similar injury.

I'm as allergic to intervening in domestic disputes as anyone, but watching a woman be killed or crippled without trying to intervene would be intolerable.

You really would have to be on the scene and evaluate the situation quickly to decide.

- Jim