Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

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gregthehand
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Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

#1

Post by gregthehand »

Last week we had to let a warehouse worker go for poor work performance. He had actually been written up multiple times, been verbally counseled, etc. Just couldn't get right. He wasn't actually my employee but his VP was gone and when he started started acting aggressive during the firing process his manager sent someone to come get me so she could have someone from our senior business team there.

Mistake number one was the guy that came and got me didn't tell me what was going on. Just that I was needed downstairs urgently. Luckily things had not dissolved too far when I walked downstairs. When I approached the situation I didn't actually know what was going on. The soon to be EX employee was being talked to, and I knew we were having trouble with him, so I assumed it was some kind of negative encounter. As I'm approaching I hear him mention something about his VP that wasn't there and the manager of our international department. I didn't quite catch what. About five seconds after I walk up I see him removing his keys to our facility off of his key chain and I understand what's going on. He starts yelling about how he is going to file a complaint and how he's been treated unfairly, etc. I'm not too concerned at this point because he is moving towards the door, but just making a big show out of leaving. Therefore I'm just hanging in the back and observing. He says goodbye to a few people even though his manager is telling him to leave, basically stalling. Mistake number two was I should have turned to another manager that was there and tell her to please go call the police and let them know we had an employee that was not leaving after being fired. He finally goes out to his car and appears to be leaving. This is about 3-5 minutes after I walked up.

As he's out in his messing around in his car, I'm watching him though a bay door. Now I realize he was again stalling. I ask his manager what he was saying about the two VP and manager he mentioned earlier and she said that he made the comment "they need to watch their back." I ask her if she made it clear to him that he was not allowed back on our property and she confirms that she did. I"m still watching him and I see him messing around in his car, he takes something out, fiddles with his shirt, and then starts heading back into the building at a good clip towards the office of the manager he said "needed to watch her back."

I'm no longer in observation mode. He ha actually covered the ground to her office in such a way that he had a good head start on me but at this point I'm running to catch up. Mistake number three, still nobody has called the police, but at this point my goal is to get between him and this person who he threatened. I walk into the office and he's saying something to her and honestly I didn't catch what it was, I guess I had a little bit of tunnel vision going. She's actually looking at her monitor and trying to ignore him. I walk in behind him, between him and her, put my hand up about a half an inch in front of his chest with an open palm and tell him "you need to leave now." I did raise my voice in order to overcome his yelling so that everyone in the office heard me say that he needed to go. He immediately backs out of her office and starts focusing his attention on me and how I can't touch him (I didn't) and that he's not afraid to fight me. I remain calm but elevate my voice enough, again, so that everyone can hear me say that he needs to leave. No matter what he says my only reply is "You need to leave" over and over. This goes on for about a minute and he won't stop so I calmly tell him "Randy, I understand you're having a bad day. However if you don't leave right now, it's going to get a lot worse." This finally turns him and he starts heading back out to the warehouse. Now he's started calling me a racist which I actually laughed at when he said it. I guess since that gave him a reaction he keyed in on that and from that point on the entire thing was about me, how I was a racist, and how I can't touch him. The reason I laughed is because of how preposterous I thought his statement was. The guy didn't work for me and I've barely had any conversation with him past the usual salutations. In which I've always been polite. I finally turn to the assistant manager that was there and ask if she's called the police. She hasn't and I tell her to do so.

Anyway he is now leaving and still ranting. I'm still saying "You need to leave." At this point he has a few more words with another VP that's now walked up and he gets in his car and leaves.

The police show up about 5-10 minutes later with about three cars. I actually see this from upstairs and don't notice it until two are leaving. So I walk downstairs and the cop is speaking with the other VP that spoke to the now ex-employee at the end and is basically saying since the guy didn't threaten anyone to their face in a clear manner that no crime has been committed and he can't take a report. I speak up from the doorway and say that he told me that he wanted to fight me, challenged me to a fight, and said that he can take me after being told to leave the premises. The cops smiles and says "we got a victim!" and asks me for ID. Now hears where some may disagree with me. I am carrying my Glock 23 in an IWB CTAC holster, however I just show him my driver's license. The reason being was that I was in my place of business, not public, and that our warehouse manager was in the room and he would tell everyone that I carry a gun. Say what you will but even though it's not against the rules, I'm not going to advertise it. The cop never runs my license just takes my information down on the report, gives us a case number and leaves. He says if the guy comes back to give us a call and that he'll make sure that it's in the call notes that if he shows back up he's been made aware that he's not welcome and to arrest him.

So a few hours go by and the guy actually shows back up! I get a call that he has pulled into the parking lot and head downstairs. Instead of going to way I usually go I head through the warehouse and come in a back door that nobody uses and lock it behind me (door knob lock that gets accidentally locked all the time, had anyone tried to come in from the warehouse and it was locked they wouldn't think anything of it). I peak around the corner and see him coming in through our show room and into the hallway of the office. He has something black in his hand that is away from me so I pull my pistol but just hold it at my side. He walks over to the manager's office throws the object (turned out to be a company issued phone) on her desk and walks back out to the warehouse. I re-holster and walk out through the door I was by. I actually don't think he ever saw me. He says something for about five seconds to one of our employees and leaves.

The female manager who was threatened has her dad coming to meet her for lunch who is a high ranking Game Warden. He shows up unfortunately about 30 seconds after the ex employee leaves. He finds out what's been going on and the wheels of justice get a little grease. I'm not sure what happened but I'm told the guy was approached by HPD and at least interviewed.

The biggest mistake is one that was carried out by the temp agency that send him to us and we eventually hired him from. It turns out this guy was a multiple felon, had served seven years in a New York State correctional facility, and was basically a career criminal up until about eight years ago. We find this out from the cops who tell us we should start doing background checks. We say that we do (WE DO!) but that this guy came from a temp agency who also does them and we were told he was good to go. The mistake was that we took their word for it. We inquire but never get a straight answer how this happened and we just let them know that they will never be sending us another temp. They say they understand and apologize.

He's called about a paycheck since but as far as we know he hasn't been back.

Stay alert and stay calm out there!
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anygunanywhere
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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

#2

Post by anygunanywhere »

Regardless of employer rules or whatever, when I am firing someone, I always take my own safety as my primary concern and take the appropriate steps.

Just sayin'.

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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

#3

Post by Keith B »

Employee firings are a very volatile situation. We usually will call police or have them outside of building and the officer on the phone if we have to release someone and there is any potential for this person to become hostile.

The main thing I would do as a follow-up is rake the temp agency over the coals and tell them you now want to see the copy of the background check you ran on him and any other employees they have sent your way. Temp agencies are notorious for saying they do background checks when they don't. I know a company who had an HR Director that was supposedly running background checks on employees. Turns out he and his mother were running a shell corporation that was doing background checks. He was paying the company money for the checks, but they really weren't doing them, and they funneled the money off shore. He was arrested for embezzlement and he and his Mom went to prison as well as having all of their assets seized.
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RoyGBiv
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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

#4

Post by RoyGBiv »

Good on you for staying calm. In addition to calling the police much earlier in the process, it sounds like your business is big enough to have a more formal separation process which should include better consideration for security. I'd suggest your management team get together with a subject matter expert and make a process change.

On the no CHL when asked for ID issue, you made a judgment call. Since there's no longer any penalty for this, you didn't risk much other than possibly a stern talking to. If the LEO would have run your license and asked, you could have probably had that conversation in private and explained things. Worst case, others would have found out and you'd be no worse off than had you handed over your CHL in the first place. The LEO might have assumed you had authority to carry at your business, in which case you were not carrying under under CHL anyways.

The part about him putting something under his shirt and confronting his manager... scary stuff. Might have been enough for LE to search him for suspicion of felon in possession of a firearm.... I'm not sure if that's sufficient probable cause..

Thanks for sharing... Glad things worked out safely.
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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

#5

Post by RPBrown »

anygunanywhere wrote:Regardless of employer rules or whatever, when I am firing someone, I always take my own safety as my primary concern and take the appropriate steps.

Just sayin'.

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Adraper
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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

#6

Post by Adraper »

I had a similar situation happen a few years ago. A guy was let go, left, got to thinking about it and came back to argue. VP wasn't there. He wanted to yell at the receptionist. I don't know how she was supposed to make the VP magically appear. I walked up behind the receptionist desk and asked him to leave. He said no that he had to see VP but he did calm down a little. I told him the VP was not here and that he should call and make an appointment. He agreed, exited the front door, went about 20', stopped, turned around, stomped quickly back to the office. I saw him coming back and as he opened the door I told the receptionist loudly to call 911 and came around the desk to meet him before he could get far into the offices. I could tell he was madder then hell just from his face and posture. I didn't have much of a plan other than just keeping him away from the other staff. He wasn't armed and neither was I. He think he realized that he was fixing to get into more trouble. He just turned around and left and I locked the door.
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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

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Post by SewTexas »

wow! Greg! you kept your cool and you protected your people! that's great! and that's what they are going to remember.
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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

#8

Post by EEllis »

Just as a side note you can remove someone from your property who is trespassing. The whole "You can't touch me" thing is not correct. You can use force to remove the party from your property. The force must be reasonable and it must be to remove the person. You can't punch him but you can take his arm to walk him out. Force can be increased if his actions cause you to use more force to remove him. Any force used must be able to be justified as an attempt to remove him from property. In this case with his vehicle being on property it would be very complicated to physically remove him so I would say you did fine there but the law does allow it. The idea that someone of a certain level or authority has to be the one to ask the person to leave is also incorrect. All it takes is someone who has apparent authority to do so. In your case any full time actual employee could tell the guy to leave and by law he would be trespassing if he refused to leave. Now what the law is and how the cops perceive it are two different things. Your location has something to do with this. If you are at a distance from police response you will find officer much more understanding of the letter of the law. In larger towns with more effective response regardless of the law the police actively try and discourage you from "self help" and in fairness it can lead to escalation and much more dangerous situation for you and more complicated on for the police. There is also the situation with what charges the officer might be working under. City ords. or the State penal code. While the state charge is a class B often big towns may have their own trespassing violations that are judged differently. It used to be hard to get Houston cops to arrest for trespassing when they filed under city trespass as a class C. They now use the state charge and it is much easier to get them to charge. (I have never looked into why that was but it's been my experience) Different depts handle it different ways and require different things before they will file. The main thing is to get a record that he was told and should understand he cannot be on property again that can be given to police to support a charge if the guy comes back. Like a signed statement by you, who ever fired him, and a copy of a letter sent with his last paycheck and kept in his file. With support like that if the cops didn't arrest as soon as the guy came on property I would be raising heck and requiring a sup. With the police report and police contact nothing else should be needed but better safe than sorry.
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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

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Post by johncanfield »

gregthehand wrote:.. So I walk downstairs and the cop is speaking with the other VP that spoke to the now ex-employee at the end and is basically saying since the guy didn't threaten anyone to their face in a clear manner that no crime has been committed and he can't take a report...
So why wouldn't that be trespassing? :confused5 Riveting story.

When I was a line manager with a Telco many years ago I never had to worry about firing anybody since it was practically impossible.
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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

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Post by EEllis »

johncanfield wrote:
gregthehand wrote:.. So I walk downstairs and the cop is speaking with the other VP that spoke to the now ex-employee at the end and is basically saying since the guy didn't threaten anyone to their face in a clear manner that no crime has been committed and he can't take a report...
So why wouldn't that be trespassing? :confused5 Riveting story.

When I was a line manager with a Telco many years ago I never had to worry about firing anybody since it was practically impossible.
It is technically trespass but the issue with cops is what will happen in court. In some jurisdictions the cop must call the prosecutor's office to see if they will take charges and they will only do so if they believe they will win. So while the guy may be trespassing if he goes in front of a jury and says "Hey I was just trying to find out why they let me go, I just wanted to talk with my supervisor. Is that so bad?" there might not be a conviction and so they hope that they can solve the issue by just running the guy off. If you really want to get someone on charges like trespass you have to show that you have the info to make the case. Video, sound, paperwork, multiple people willing to testify, etc.
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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

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Post by E10 »

I recommend hiring an off-duty police officer to provide security, as I have done on two occasions when I anticipated possible trouble in a termination. The local police department has an officer at each substation who manages these 'moonlighting' assignments, and they aren't overly expensive (as I recall, the going rate was $75 for a minimum of three hours). Sometimes you may want to keep everything under wraps; other times you may want a show of force. On one occasion, when I arranged for termination of a manager, the police officer (actually, a detective) arrived early in plain clothes and made himself part of the background (the VP doing the termination didn't want to do it in the office, but did want a public place). The terminated manager never knew of the security measures we took. In another instance, we had a uniformed officer in the office lobby when we terminated a rank-and-file employee who we suspected might resort to violence. He left peacefully.

Also, no matter where you get your employees, always arrange for your own background checks from a reliable source. A temporary agency has a vested interest in 'selling' you employees, and checking backgrounds too closely is anathema to that interest. I'm not saying they all cheat, but I would recommend that you trust them only after a long relationship of proven performance. And have them provide you copies of the background check reports for your own files.

The funny part of this story is when I, myself, left the organization, upper management sent a police officer to watch me remove my personal effects from my office, although I had never exhibited anything but gentlemanly behavior in my several years with the organization. Yes, I have a CHL, and I don't broadcast it, but I don't keep it a deep secret, either. Executive management knew because it came up during discussion of Texas law concerning carrying at work. I guess to some folks I appear more dangerous than I consider myself.

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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

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Post by JP171 »

johncanfield wrote:
gregthehand wrote:.. So I walk downstairs and the cop is speaking with the other VP that spoke to the now ex-employee at the end and is basically saying since the guy didn't threaten anyone to their face in a clear manner that no crime has been committed and he can't take a report...
So why wouldn't that be trespassing? :confused5 Riveting story.

When I was a line manager with a Telco many years ago I never had to worry about firing anybody since it was practically impossible.

yea that's one of the things that make me not really mad but I guess aggravated at the LE sector of the community, the law for trespassing and criminal trespassing says nothing about having to have been warned by a LEO but they swear it does and refuse to arrest anyone if they haven't warned them first.

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Re: Fired Worker Wouldn't Leave

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Post by EEllis »

JP171 wrote:
johncanfield wrote:
gregthehand wrote:.. So I walk downstairs and the cop is speaking with the other VP that spoke to the now ex-employee at the end and is basically saying since the guy didn't threaten anyone to their face in a clear manner that no crime has been committed and he can't take a report...
So why wouldn't that be trespassing? :confused5 Riveting story.

When I was a line manager with a Telco many years ago I never had to worry about firing anybody since it was practically impossible.

yea that's one of the things that make me not really mad but I guess aggravated at the LE sector of the community, the law for trespassing and criminal trespassing says nothing about having to have been warned by a LEO but they swear it does and refuse to arrest anyone if they haven't warned them first.
Not really their fault. It's not if they broke a law it's if they can be convicted.
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