Not sure what to do after

[TEXASGIANT]

If this is not in the right forum please feel free to move it.
I don't get around here as often as I would like or probably should just to keep up with the latest related news but I do lurk about.

We often discuss how to avoid confrontation and what to do during and then when the uniforms show up. I never gave it much thought b4 but there was an incident not far from my home in Galveston.
8 youts are in custody (5 are juvy and 3 are 17+) after beating a guy and taking his cell phone. Probably not one of my wisest decisions but I have made up my mind that I will not give up anything I have if there is any option other than my own death. I don't care if the phone was free and out of minutes "I aint givin it up".
Being a tough guy and sitting her in my home It is easy to say "if that was me...". What is my responsibility after? Its kind of ironic to be concerned for the well being after he has put himself into a position where I have been forced to put holes in him. Have I broken any laws ( assuming everything else was clean and correct) do I have to stay around and render aid or even call the police? If I am OK and can continue on my way isn't that all that matters to me?
I know this sounds harsh and I am probably pushing the question far beyond reason but I had not seen it specifically mentioned in any class or thread.
Thanks gang keep up the great work!
TEXASGIANT

[phddan]

Wow, where to begin.

[seamusTX]

Howdy, neighbor. That incident took place half a mile from my house. Menard Park is a nasty place at night.

Please watch this thread and attend the seminar: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... php?t=8278

It could save you a world of grief and legal fees.

Short answer to your question: Carrying a cell phone is mandatory unless you plan to give in to every demand of criminals. If you have any kind of encounter with a criminal, call 911 ASAP. We are all paying for it, so use it when you need it.

If you are legally justified in shooting someone, call 911 and say:

A man tried to kill me and I shot to stop him. Send an ambulance and the police.

That comes from the seminar mentioned above.

I don't know who your CHL instructor was, but please consider renewing with Tom Estep. He covers this topic in his course. He has an ad in the Galveston County Daily News classifieds under Guns and Ammunition every day.

- Jim

[stevie_d_64]

I recommend you attend the Texas CHL Forum Day at the PSC range this September...

I have not looked at the schedule, but Charles Cotton (founder of this website) gives a lecture/seminar on situations and the aftermath of possible incidents like this...

I highly recommend folks attend this discussion...I have attended it a couple of times, and it is almost the ultimate "gut-check" you can take if you are serious about self-defense...

If I recall it is almost a standing room only affair, so sign up early and often!

[txinvestigator]

I would like to remind you that shooting someone is aggravated assault; if they die it is a homicide. You MAY be justified in doing so under Texas law; however, using force is a defense to prosecution/ That is a legal term that means you have to be able to prove your actions were justified.

Leaving the scene will get you tossed in jail and make it very difficult for the authorities to believe your story. I will go out on a limb and say there is a 99% chance of your being tried and convicted if you just leave the scene.

[seamusTX]

Leaving the scene will get you tossed in jail and make it very difficult for the authorities to believe your story. I will go out on a limb and say there is a 99% chance of your being tried and convicted if you just leave the scene.

I agree that you will be in sorry shape if caught.

About half of homicides are unsolved, in the sense that no one is found guilty of them.

As I said above, I think it's a terrible idea to shoot someone and leave the scene.

There have been a few cases where a CHL holder "defused" a situation by drawing, and the criminal later called the police on the CHL holder. It's rare, but it's not something you want to risk.

I forget who said it, but ...

The first to call 911 wins.

- Jim

[flintknapper]

Leaving the scene will get you tossed in jail and make it very difficult for the authorities to believe your story. I will go out on a limb and say there is a 99% chance of your being tried and convicted if you just leave the scene.

Leaving the scene might sometimes be necessary to avoid further danger, so "leaving the scene" is not itself a one way ticket to jail.

Contacting the authorities is mandatory IMO, and of course... stay at or near the scene if circumstance allows.

[CaptDave]

Probably not one of my wisest decisions but I have made up my mind that I will not give up anything I have if there is any option other than my own death. I don't care if the phone was free and out of minutes "I aint givin it up".

Besides what everyone else has already said, you MUST be in fear of your life before you can start "putting holes in him"

PC §9.31. SELF-DEFENSE.(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b),
a person is justified in using force against another when and to the
degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful
force.
(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

If some guys come up to you and start to threaten you verbally (and you are carrying concealed) the burden is on YOU (because you know you are armed) to try to de-escalate the situation.

If that fails, drawing your firearm while retreating and giving verbal commands for compliance MAY come next.

PC §9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary
to avoid imminent harm;
(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh,
according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm
sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and
(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the
conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.

PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person
is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under
Section 9.31;
(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have
retreated; and
(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use
of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated
kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault,
robbery, or aggravated robbery.

THAT should handle it. If it does not you must be prepared to follow up with whatever it takes. (This is what Jeff Coopers "Color Code" was designed for and maybe I'll start another thread on that topic).

Shooting a guy because he said he want's your cell phone is not justified.

A "reasonable" person in your situation may have retreated...Tossed them his cell and try to leave. I'm sure other's here can come up with the costs involved in defending ones self in a court of law involving a self defense shooting that far outweigh the cost of a new phone and transferring your cell number to the new phone... (See problem two below)

If they continue to escalate the situation after you've given them the phone and tried to retreat, you are meeting the burden placed on you and acting like a "reasonable" person who is running out of options.

Drawing on a large group of young men who are threatening you and who may (or may not) be gang related and could very possibly do you great harm physically by their sheer numbers and by the weapons they may or may not have concealed is a different story.

Regarding that, please note:
PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force
is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes
of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by
the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose
is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly
force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Its kind of ironic to be concerned for the well being after he has put himself into a position where I have been forced to put holes in him. Have I broken any laws ( assuming everything else was clean and correct) do I have to stay around and render aid or even call the police? If I am OK and can continue on my way isn't that all that matters to me?
ITEXASGIANT

At this point I will paraphrase Cooper.

You are now concerned with "problem Two". "Problem One" being solved when you "put holes in him".
Problem Two is the judicial system. You must be able to prove that you were in fear for your life, that you acted rationally and were only acting in self-defense. You placing the 911 call and sticking around to explain the way it really happened to the police is a very good idea.

Otherwise you may have witnesses that see you running from the scene after shooting a bunch of "youts", survivors calling you a racist/vigilante/redneck who attacked them while they weren't bothering anybody... others speculating it was a drug deal gone bad...

If all that matters to you is that you can "continue on your way" you better be sure you did everything possible to avoid the confrontation and that deadly force was your last option, not your first choice.

Just my opinion...

[tomc]

I agree with Flintknapper on this. Sometimes it may be best to leave the scene of the incident.

This situation actually happened to someone. He was driving in a bad part of town, got a call on his cell phone and had to stop to write down some notes. A "homie" tried to rob him with a gun, he drew and shot the BG. Noting where he was, he was worried that his friends might be near so he left the area and then called 911 to report the incident. He gave his description to the police and said he would return when they had secured the scene, which he did.

I believe he was complimented by the police for his actions.

[txinvestigator]

Probably not one of my wisest decisions but I have made up my mind that I will not give up anything I have if there is any option other than my own death. I don't care if the phone was free and out of minutes "I aint givin it up".

Besides what everyone else has already said, you MUST be in fear of your life before you can start "putting holes in him"

Actually "being in fear of your life" is not a requirement, in fact, nowhere in chapter 9 is that phrase written. You need to show that you had a reasonable belief that using deadly force was immediately necessary to protect yourself from his use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force against you.

AND deadly force is justified to prevent the imminent commission of several crimes against you that might not put you "in fear of your life".

We need to stop perpetuating this, "in fear of your life" myth. You may FEEL in fear of your life when you need to use deadly force, but it is NOT your justification.

[seamusTX]

Ditto.

- Jim

[CaptDave]

Actually "being in fear of your life" is not a requirement, in fact, nowhere in chapter 9 is that phrase written. You need to show that you had a reasonable belief that using deadly force was immediately necessary to protect yourself from his use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force against you.

Ummm, you mean, like, being in fear for my life?

AND deadly force is justified to prevent the imminent commission of several crimes against you that might not put you "in fear of your life".

That's right, I can also stop them from doing all the other things I mentioned in my post as well:

(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated
kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault,
robbery, or aggravated robbery.

But thanks anyway.

.

[Renegade]

Actually "being in fear of your life" is not a requirement, in fact, nowhere in chapter 9 is that phrase written. You need to show that you had a reasonable belief that using deadly force was immediately necessary to protect yourself from his use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force against you.

AND deadly force is justified to prevent the imminent commission of several crimes against you that might not put you "in fear of your life".

We need to stop perpetuating this, "in fear of your life" myth. You may FEEL in fear of your life when you need to use deadly force, but it is NOT your justification.

Thank you brother. Sometimes I feel I am the only one preaching this. Whether you are wetting your pants in fear, or stone-cold defiant, fear is irrelevant. What he said in red.

IF one is not smart enough to keep their mouth shut after a shooting, at least be smart enough not to state fear as a justification. Once those words leave your mouth, they cannot be retrieved.

[Renegade]

Ummm, you mean, like, being in fear for my life?

I have been "in fear for my life" several times while driving along DFW roadways over the years, even once or twice at a public range. Not one of those situations would have warranted shooting anyone. It is important to understand the difference.

[CHL/LEO]

Capt Dave posted:

That's right, I can also stop them from doing all the other things I mentioned in my post as well:

(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated
kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault,
robbery, or aggravated robbery.

You can also legally use Deadly Force to prevent someone from stealing your property or stopping them from Criminal Mischief. I wouldn't advise it but you can.

TXI is correct in the "fear of my life" myth.