The first thing that came to mind when I read that the officer knelt down to fire, was he was trying to shoot under some limbs that were a little lower than the birdhouse, and in the line of fire.
Dan
Stray bullet fired by police officer kills 5 year old boy
Moderators: carlson1, Keith B, Charles L. Cotton
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flintknapper
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phddan wrote:The first thing that came to mind when I read that the officer knelt down to fire, was he was trying to shoot under some limbs that were a little lower than the birdhouse, and in the line of fire.
Dan
This could well be. There are not enough details given for us to know.
The bottom line however....is that IF the snake had to be shot.... then the obvious way to do it would have been with a shotgun (and small shot).
Better still........just leave the thing alone.
I just can't get past how unnecessary all of this was.
It makes absolutely no difference to me that the persons involved were LEO, if it had been the Pope himself I would maintain the same position.
IMO, there was just no reason to get hysterical over what should have been an easily recognized "harmless" snake. That is what makes it so tragic to me.
Spartans ask not how many, but where!
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Texican_gal
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I agree with your assessment. It's a great tragedy, but not prosecutable like this.Charles L. Cotton wrote:I have to respectfully disagree with the DA's evaluation of this case. I do so reluctantly, because as an attorney I know the risk in trying to second guess a jury, prosecutor, LEO, or judge without seeing all of the evidence to which they were privy. However, if this latest report is accurate regarding the underlying facts, I do not believe the officers' conduct meets the legal standard for manslaughter. I know for certain that the definition provided in the article is inaccurate and if it came from the DA's lips, that’s worrisome ....
I am reminded of the recent Dallas case where a skateboarder was run over by his best friend as they performed a stunt. The dead boy's parents did not want this other young man prosecuted, and he was not. It's not exactly the same, but see my point.
I believe the homeowner should accept responsibility for involving the POLICE on a non-venomous reptile.
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Hamourkiller
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Yes, the feeling would be the same if the circumstances are identical.Charles L. Cotton wrote:I too feel terrible for the boy's family, and I don't think there is anything in my post to indicate otherwise. As for the officers, I feel equally bad. Would you feel as strongly if a hunter's bullet missed and killed someone?Hamourkiller wrote:Well thank God the Prosecutor sees it differently. I am willing to bet the jury will also.
I only have sorrow for the family young Austin.
For the "Officers" involved just anger and disgust.
Chas.
In addition, the special treatment these officers received just added to the pain of the family. They should have been treated the same as any normal citizen would have been treated in the same circumstance. Not hidden from view and sheltered from the shame of their actions.
God may have mercy for these men but I can't find any in my heart for them. I keep putting myself in the GrandPa's shoes.
This is worse than the officer in California shooting the young boy in his own house because he had a toy gun in his hands! There at least he just responded as he was trained!
Just hope that poor family can keep their sanity.
For us as people dedicated to defending ourselves, it just reinforces the finality of weapons and the care needed when we discharge them. There is no calling the bullets back. People please take care every time we touch a firearm!
However this turns out I have lost no respect for any on this board for any differences on this issue. The emotional impact of what happened is so great as to preclude any detached examination of the event. (Being able to see it from both parties point of view). It is the sort of thing people just have to disagree upon and allow time to pass for a more reasoned review of things.
May God give strength to young Austin's family.
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phddan
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By Julianna Parker
The Norman Transcript
The two Noble police officers charged with second-degree manslaughter Friday turned themselves into authorities Monday and were released on personal recognizance bonds.
Brad Rogers, 34, and Shawn Richardson, 29, were involved in the accidental shooting of 5-year-old Austin Haley Aug. 3.
Rogers, who had been at the Noble Police Department about a month, reportedly fired a handgun at a snake hanging in a birdhouse when he was called out for animal control. One of the shots struck Haley at a nearby pond where he was fishing with family members.
Richardson was the supervising officer at the scene. Both officers have been placed on administrative leave, along with a female officer also at the scene, by the Noble Police Department.
Charges were filed against Rogers and Richardson Friday. They turned themselves in at the Cleveland County Jail Monday, staying only a few minutes before a judge released them on personal recognizance bonds, said Capt. Doug Blaine, spokesman for the Cleveland County Sheriff’s Department.
The preliminary hearing conference for the officers is scheduled for Oct. 23.
In Noble, the chamber of commerce has organized a fund as a memorial for the boy who was killed.
The Austin Haley Memorial Park Fund will raise money for the parks around Noble. It is governed by a committee under the non-profit Noble Now group created by the chamber.
For more information on the memorial, see the Noble page in The Transcript Saturday.
"Charges were filed against Rogers and Richardson Friday. They turned themselves in at the Cleveland County Jail Monday, staying only a few minutes before a judge released them on personal recognizance bonds, "
Yea, no favoritism going on here.
Dan
The Norman Transcript
The two Noble police officers charged with second-degree manslaughter Friday turned themselves into authorities Monday and were released on personal recognizance bonds.
Brad Rogers, 34, and Shawn Richardson, 29, were involved in the accidental shooting of 5-year-old Austin Haley Aug. 3.
Rogers, who had been at the Noble Police Department about a month, reportedly fired a handgun at a snake hanging in a birdhouse when he was called out for animal control. One of the shots struck Haley at a nearby pond where he was fishing with family members.
Richardson was the supervising officer at the scene. Both officers have been placed on administrative leave, along with a female officer also at the scene, by the Noble Police Department.
Charges were filed against Rogers and Richardson Friday. They turned themselves in at the Cleveland County Jail Monday, staying only a few minutes before a judge released them on personal recognizance bonds, said Capt. Doug Blaine, spokesman for the Cleveland County Sheriff’s Department.
The preliminary hearing conference for the officers is scheduled for Oct. 23.
In Noble, the chamber of commerce has organized a fund as a memorial for the boy who was killed.
The Austin Haley Memorial Park Fund will raise money for the parks around Noble. It is governed by a committee under the non-profit Noble Now group created by the chamber.
For more information on the memorial, see the Noble page in The Transcript Saturday.
"Charges were filed against Rogers and Richardson Friday. They turned themselves in at the Cleveland County Jail Monday, staying only a few minutes before a judge released them on personal recognizance bonds, "
Yea, no favoritism going on here.
Dan
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phddan
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All three Noble police officers involved in the shooting fired
The Norman Transcript
Transcript Staff Writer
NOBLE -- All three officers involved in the accidental shooting death of a 5-year-old boy were fired late last week for "just cause," the city manager said Tuesday.
"Late last week I did issue termination letters to those officers involved in the shooting," City Manager Bob Wade said.
Wade said they were terminated for "just cause," but would not say exactly what that meant or release the city's investigation documents.
"Obviously it's based on a full investigation of the events and their (the officers') comments," he said.
The three were fired because of their actions or inactions when they responded to an animal control call that lead to one officer shooting at a snake in a birdhouse. A bullet from the gun struck and killed 5-year-old Austin Haley who was fishing at a pond with family members.
Brad Rogers, 34, and Shawn Richardson, 29, were charged with second-degree manslaughter last month.
Rogers, who had been at the Noble Police Department about a month, reportedly fired the gun. Richardson was the supervising officer at the scene.
The other officer at the scene was Michele Key. She responded to the animal control call first and then called the other two officers for backup, according to court documents submitted in the manslaughter charge.
She was not charged with anything, but was fired by the city along with the other two officers.
"Based on the investigation, on her actions and inactions on that night and her record as a police officer here," the city decided to fire her, Wade said.
The officers were given a chance to respond to the investigation at individual hearings last week, Wade said.
The letters of termination were mailed last Friday, but Wade refused to reveal the terminations until Tuesday so the officers could be notified first, he said.
Ben Daves, the Noble police chief at the time, recommended all three be terminated, Wade said. Daves was fired Friday, as well.
An interim chief was appointed immediately. Keith Springstead, a recently retired assistant chief from the Chickasha Police Department.
"I was more than willing, since I wasn't doing anything else, to come and try to help out," he said.
Rogers and Richardson turned themselves in last month and were released the same day on a personal recognizance bond. Their preliminary hearing conferences will be Oct. 23.
Jack Haley, the father of Austin, said he thinks the firings were necessary because of the "gross negligence" displayed in the shooting.
"There could have been so much more done that night," he said.
A fourth officer, Bobby Brent Sirpless, was placed on administrative leave last month after he was charged with driving under the influence.
The police department is conducting an internal investigation into that matter, as well, and will be done probably sometime this week, Wade said.
The Noble Police Department is down to only six acting officers, including the interim chief, Springstead said Tuesday.
Springstead said the department's number one priority is hiring more officers.
The change of leadership shouldn't slow down the process at all, he said.
He went ahead and continued with a job offer Daves had made, even pushing up the hiring date for an officer hired this week.
The officer is not certified yet, so won't be an active officer for several months, Springstead said.
The Cleveland County Sheriff's Department is still assisting Noble to patrol the area, he said.
"They've been very gracious in helping out the town during the crisis here," Springstead said.
Julianna Parker
366-3550
jparker@normantranscript.com
All 3 officers on scene, and the police chief got the boot. Now lets see how far the charges go.
Dan
The Norman Transcript
Transcript Staff Writer
NOBLE -- All three officers involved in the accidental shooting death of a 5-year-old boy were fired late last week for "just cause," the city manager said Tuesday.
"Late last week I did issue termination letters to those officers involved in the shooting," City Manager Bob Wade said.
Wade said they were terminated for "just cause," but would not say exactly what that meant or release the city's investigation documents.
"Obviously it's based on a full investigation of the events and their (the officers') comments," he said.
The three were fired because of their actions or inactions when they responded to an animal control call that lead to one officer shooting at a snake in a birdhouse. A bullet from the gun struck and killed 5-year-old Austin Haley who was fishing at a pond with family members.
Brad Rogers, 34, and Shawn Richardson, 29, were charged with second-degree manslaughter last month.
Rogers, who had been at the Noble Police Department about a month, reportedly fired the gun. Richardson was the supervising officer at the scene.
The other officer at the scene was Michele Key. She responded to the animal control call first and then called the other two officers for backup, according to court documents submitted in the manslaughter charge.
She was not charged with anything, but was fired by the city along with the other two officers.
"Based on the investigation, on her actions and inactions on that night and her record as a police officer here," the city decided to fire her, Wade said.
The officers were given a chance to respond to the investigation at individual hearings last week, Wade said.
The letters of termination were mailed last Friday, but Wade refused to reveal the terminations until Tuesday so the officers could be notified first, he said.
Ben Daves, the Noble police chief at the time, recommended all three be terminated, Wade said. Daves was fired Friday, as well.
An interim chief was appointed immediately. Keith Springstead, a recently retired assistant chief from the Chickasha Police Department.
"I was more than willing, since I wasn't doing anything else, to come and try to help out," he said.
Rogers and Richardson turned themselves in last month and were released the same day on a personal recognizance bond. Their preliminary hearing conferences will be Oct. 23.
Jack Haley, the father of Austin, said he thinks the firings were necessary because of the "gross negligence" displayed in the shooting.
"There could have been so much more done that night," he said.
A fourth officer, Bobby Brent Sirpless, was placed on administrative leave last month after he was charged with driving under the influence.
The police department is conducting an internal investigation into that matter, as well, and will be done probably sometime this week, Wade said.
The Noble Police Department is down to only six acting officers, including the interim chief, Springstead said Tuesday.
Springstead said the department's number one priority is hiring more officers.
The change of leadership shouldn't slow down the process at all, he said.
He went ahead and continued with a job offer Daves had made, even pushing up the hiring date for an officer hired this week.
The officer is not certified yet, so won't be an active officer for several months, Springstead said.
The Cleveland County Sheriff's Department is still assisting Noble to patrol the area, he said.
"They've been very gracious in helping out the town during the crisis here," Springstead said.
Julianna Parker
366-3550
jparker@normantranscript.com
All 3 officers on scene, and the police chief got the boot. Now lets see how far the charges go.
Dan
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phddan
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Re: Stray bullet fired by police officer kills 5 year old boy
Boy's family unhappy with plea agreement for Noble officers
By Associated Press
3/12/2008 5:58 AM
Last Modified: 3/12/2008 5:59 AM
NORMAN -- The family of a 5-year-old boy who was killed when a bullet from a Noble police officer's gun struck him is angry that a plea agreement between the officer and the state requires no jail time.
Cleveland County prosecutors have offered deferred sentences to two former Noble police officers charged with second-degree manslaughter in the Aug. 3 death of Austin Haley.
"It's nothing more than a slap on the wrist, if you ask me," Jack Haley, the boy's father, said Tuesday.
Haley said sentencing for Paul Bradley Rogers, 34, and Robert Shawn Richardson, 29, would be deferred for two years in exchange for them entering guilty pleas. The men also would be fined $1,000 each and ordered to forfeit their state law enforcement certifications, he said.
Assistant District Attorney David Brockman declined to confirm that an offer has been made in the cases.
"We know the family is unhappy, but we can't comment on cases that are pending," Brockman said.
Haley said Brockman and District Attorney Greg Mashburn told the family on Monday about the offer.
The family most objects to the provision that doesn't require the men to serve any jail time, Haley said.
"This sweetheart deal doesn't serve us; it doesn't serve justice, and it doesn't serve the public," he said.
The family still is grieving the loss of a child, Haley said, "and now this. This just makes it worse. We're the victims here, and we don't feel like we have an advocate."
Austin Haley died when a bullet from one of the officers' guns ricocheted and hit him while he was outside fishing with his grandfather. The officers were in a neighbor's yard, firing at a snake in a birdhouse.
Jack Haley said the family wanted the men to serve "maybe 30 to 90 days."
"They killed somebody because of their negligence. They shouldn't get deferred sentences that can be expunged from their record after two years are up," he told The Oklahoman.
Brockman said prosecutors have kept the Haley family informed of the case's progress.
But Haley said until Monday he thought prosecutors were talking about some jail time, "like, maybe 30 days."
On Monday, he said, the family learned that the two men had waived their rights to a preliminary hearing and that a disposition date for the cases had been
set.
This actually does not surprise me.
Over on AR15.com, the father of the boy made a post about this.
"I am Austin's Father. I hope that this messege gets to all of you, this is the first time I have posted here. I have been reading your post for several months now and I have wanted to let so many people know what we know. We have had to wait until the prelim trial was waived to let everyone know what is going on with the case. Of course you have heard we are not happy with the deal to put it mildly. When we took this case to the Cleveland County DA Greg Mashburn, he did not seem to think that any charges were waranted. But he thought that maybe some probationary period might be in order. So we did not agree from the get go. We immediately made it known that we wanted to see jail time happen. What we really wanted is to see a trial happen, but over the months we have found that the DA and his office seem to not want to go to trial for the reason that since he was so graciously given his office by the local FOP, he does not want to put away one of their finest. In other words, we do not think that he would put 100% of his efforts or his office efforts into a trial.
It seems like no one wants to address the fact and the stupidity of shooting a snake that was stuck in a bird house. Much less a non-poisonous snake. The snake in question being a black rat snake, by the way, at 2:30 the next morning was still stuck in the bird house and was removed by a Norman Animal control officer. The snake was never hit by a bullet, the stupid rookie missed twice. The second bullet hitting my son. These guys stepped over a shovel, a hoe and some hedge clippers to use a gun to try and hit the snake. They never used those garden tools. Michelle Key the first officer on the scene tried to use the handle of the hoe to no avail, and then when the boy cops showed up, it was time to show off. Officer Robert Shawn Richardson said and I quote from the OSBI report "I guess we'll have to shoot it" then the rookie Paul Bradley Rogers said "I'll do it, I just got out of CLEET training". I am appaulled at the next bit of information. The rookie said "Fire in the hole" before his first shot. This was a joke to them, they were showing off for the girl cop.
These guys were not interested in doing things right this night. If they would have, things would have been different. I was in my shop not more than 60 yards away with my sliding doors open with music up loud, my wife was mowing our front yard with a push mower the same distance away, her father had just picked up our boys to go fishing at the pond, they had been there 5 minutes when the first shot rang out, 6 seconds later the second shot came. My father in-law two months over a stroke he had, could bearly muster the strength to lift my 50lb 5 year old son plus keep my 2 year old in check while they climbed up the hill to get to the 4 wheeler. We did not know what had happened, until 2 minutes later when he drove up to my wife in our front yard, I heard my wife yell "What", I came running to find my son bleeding from the head, knowing his life was gone from the first look at his injury. I yelled, what happened, I then began running around yelling who shot my son. Finally I heard some people coming from behind some trees, they were wandering what had happened. There was one or two of the cops, plus some neighbors. They acted like they did not know what was going on, and we were to screwed up in our heads to even think it was cops that shot our son. We did not find this out until the Noble Police Chief Ben Daves came to the hospital to tell us. These cops stayed as far away from the carnage they created, they did not even see my son and the fatal injury they caused.
The neighbor that originally called the police about the snake, seems to be siding with the cops, they got to her some how. She won't even talk to us. Her 16 year old daughter got on the internet and fished up some photos of a rattlesnake and told the cops thats what the snake was. The birdhouse was not even in her back yard, it was her neighbors back yard, she needed to mind her own business and I would still have my son. This neighbor has been extremely stand offish to us. Not even allowing us to talk to her daughter about what happened, we know that both of them are witnesses, other neighbors of theirs saw them watching the cops as they performed their "duties". The whole mess has turned our lives upside down. My son Dalton relives this day everyday. I relive this day everyday. My wife relives this day everyday. The only way we have gotten through these days is God. We know that God has our son. We know that God did not take our son from us. We know that God did not cause this to happen. It was the cops, their pride and arrogance killed my son. The cop thinking he could hit a moving target killed my son, the sergeant cop who said lets shoot it killed my son. Anyone who sides with these cops and fails to see the neglegience in their actions is just as responsible for killing my son.
Posted :: 3/16/2008 12:45:56 AM CDT"
Words fail me right now.
Dan
By Associated Press
3/12/2008 5:58 AM
Last Modified: 3/12/2008 5:59 AM
NORMAN -- The family of a 5-year-old boy who was killed when a bullet from a Noble police officer's gun struck him is angry that a plea agreement between the officer and the state requires no jail time.
Cleveland County prosecutors have offered deferred sentences to two former Noble police officers charged with second-degree manslaughter in the Aug. 3 death of Austin Haley.
"It's nothing more than a slap on the wrist, if you ask me," Jack Haley, the boy's father, said Tuesday.
Haley said sentencing for Paul Bradley Rogers, 34, and Robert Shawn Richardson, 29, would be deferred for two years in exchange for them entering guilty pleas. The men also would be fined $1,000 each and ordered to forfeit their state law enforcement certifications, he said.
Assistant District Attorney David Brockman declined to confirm that an offer has been made in the cases.
"We know the family is unhappy, but we can't comment on cases that are pending," Brockman said.
Haley said Brockman and District Attorney Greg Mashburn told the family on Monday about the offer.
The family most objects to the provision that doesn't require the men to serve any jail time, Haley said.
"This sweetheart deal doesn't serve us; it doesn't serve justice, and it doesn't serve the public," he said.
The family still is grieving the loss of a child, Haley said, "and now this. This just makes it worse. We're the victims here, and we don't feel like we have an advocate."
Austin Haley died when a bullet from one of the officers' guns ricocheted and hit him while he was outside fishing with his grandfather. The officers were in a neighbor's yard, firing at a snake in a birdhouse.
Jack Haley said the family wanted the men to serve "maybe 30 to 90 days."
"They killed somebody because of their negligence. They shouldn't get deferred sentences that can be expunged from their record after two years are up," he told The Oklahoman.
Brockman said prosecutors have kept the Haley family informed of the case's progress.
But Haley said until Monday he thought prosecutors were talking about some jail time, "like, maybe 30 days."
On Monday, he said, the family learned that the two men had waived their rights to a preliminary hearing and that a disposition date for the cases had been
set.
This actually does not surprise me.
Over on AR15.com, the father of the boy made a post about this.
"I am Austin's Father. I hope that this messege gets to all of you, this is the first time I have posted here. I have been reading your post for several months now and I have wanted to let so many people know what we know. We have had to wait until the prelim trial was waived to let everyone know what is going on with the case. Of course you have heard we are not happy with the deal to put it mildly. When we took this case to the Cleveland County DA Greg Mashburn, he did not seem to think that any charges were waranted. But he thought that maybe some probationary period might be in order. So we did not agree from the get go. We immediately made it known that we wanted to see jail time happen. What we really wanted is to see a trial happen, but over the months we have found that the DA and his office seem to not want to go to trial for the reason that since he was so graciously given his office by the local FOP, he does not want to put away one of their finest. In other words, we do not think that he would put 100% of his efforts or his office efforts into a trial.
It seems like no one wants to address the fact and the stupidity of shooting a snake that was stuck in a bird house. Much less a non-poisonous snake. The snake in question being a black rat snake, by the way, at 2:30 the next morning was still stuck in the bird house and was removed by a Norman Animal control officer. The snake was never hit by a bullet, the stupid rookie missed twice. The second bullet hitting my son. These guys stepped over a shovel, a hoe and some hedge clippers to use a gun to try and hit the snake. They never used those garden tools. Michelle Key the first officer on the scene tried to use the handle of the hoe to no avail, and then when the boy cops showed up, it was time to show off. Officer Robert Shawn Richardson said and I quote from the OSBI report "I guess we'll have to shoot it" then the rookie Paul Bradley Rogers said "I'll do it, I just got out of CLEET training". I am appaulled at the next bit of information. The rookie said "Fire in the hole" before his first shot. This was a joke to them, they were showing off for the girl cop.
These guys were not interested in doing things right this night. If they would have, things would have been different. I was in my shop not more than 60 yards away with my sliding doors open with music up loud, my wife was mowing our front yard with a push mower the same distance away, her father had just picked up our boys to go fishing at the pond, they had been there 5 minutes when the first shot rang out, 6 seconds later the second shot came. My father in-law two months over a stroke he had, could bearly muster the strength to lift my 50lb 5 year old son plus keep my 2 year old in check while they climbed up the hill to get to the 4 wheeler. We did not know what had happened, until 2 minutes later when he drove up to my wife in our front yard, I heard my wife yell "What", I came running to find my son bleeding from the head, knowing his life was gone from the first look at his injury. I yelled, what happened, I then began running around yelling who shot my son. Finally I heard some people coming from behind some trees, they were wandering what had happened. There was one or two of the cops, plus some neighbors. They acted like they did not know what was going on, and we were to screwed up in our heads to even think it was cops that shot our son. We did not find this out until the Noble Police Chief Ben Daves came to the hospital to tell us. These cops stayed as far away from the carnage they created, they did not even see my son and the fatal injury they caused.
The neighbor that originally called the police about the snake, seems to be siding with the cops, they got to her some how. She won't even talk to us. Her 16 year old daughter got on the internet and fished up some photos of a rattlesnake and told the cops thats what the snake was. The birdhouse was not even in her back yard, it was her neighbors back yard, she needed to mind her own business and I would still have my son. This neighbor has been extremely stand offish to us. Not even allowing us to talk to her daughter about what happened, we know that both of them are witnesses, other neighbors of theirs saw them watching the cops as they performed their "duties". The whole mess has turned our lives upside down. My son Dalton relives this day everyday. I relive this day everyday. My wife relives this day everyday. The only way we have gotten through these days is God. We know that God has our son. We know that God did not take our son from us. We know that God did not cause this to happen. It was the cops, their pride and arrogance killed my son. The cop thinking he could hit a moving target killed my son, the sergeant cop who said lets shoot it killed my son. Anyone who sides with these cops and fails to see the neglegience in their actions is just as responsible for killing my son.
Posted :: 3/16/2008 12:45:56 AM CDT"
Words fail me right now.
Dan
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Wildscar
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Re: Stray bullet fired by police officer kills 5 year old boy
phddan wrote:Words fail me right now.
Wildscar
"Far Better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt 1899
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"Far Better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt 1899
Beretta 92FS
Holster Review Resource
Project One Million:Texas - Click here and Join NRA Today!
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KC5AV
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Re: Stray bullet fired by police officer kills 5 year old boy
This seems like a really good place for a civil suit.
NRA lifetime member
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Charles L. Cotton
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Re: Stray bullet fired by police officer kills 5 year old boy
This is why the American judicial system doesn't let family members sit on juries or decide who will be charged with a crime. This is a horrible event for everyone involved. I cannot imagine how the family feels.Anyone who sides with these cops and fails to see the neglegience in their actions is just as responsible for killing my son.
Chas.
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phddan
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Re: Stray bullet fired by police officer kills 5 year old boy
Beg to differ Charles, doesn't seem to be to horrible for the officers involved. No jail time, in two years they can get their records expunged, and then probably get their badges again.
Seems as though that department and DA thinks it was just an unfortunate situation.
Dan
Seems as though that department and DA thinks it was just an unfortunate situation.
Dan
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Charles L. Cotton
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Re: Stray bullet fired by police officer kills 5 year old boy
Accidentally killing a child will be with them the rest of their lives. I doubt that any of them will ever be able to see a snake, a birdhouse, a shovel, or any garden tool without thinking about how they could have and should have handled it differently. They will see that child's face every day of their lives. They will see him in children they pass on the street, they will see him in their dreams. No, they aren't getting off light, regardless what the state does or does not do.
Every year in the Houston area, parents accidentally kill their children, either directly or through failure to supervise. In the last two years alone, I recall three reports of parents or close relatives who have run over their children in driveways, at least two have had small children drown in swimming pools and one shot his teenage daughter ,mistaking her for a burglar if I remember correctly. Every single year in Texas, people die in hunting accidents, most of whom are shot when mistaken for game. These people are not charged. Why? Because these were terrible, but entirely preventable accidents.
I am not making light of the death of this child; to the contrary, I feel it's a horrible tragedy. I also don't blame the parents for being upset at the apparent plea bargain; but that's why relatives cannot and should not have a say in whether a defendant is charged. That's a decision that must be made by people who can be objective and grieving parents are not among them. The post of the little boy's grief-stricken father proves this to be true. He apparently blames not only the officers for the death of his son, but everyone who disagrees with his view of the facts surrounding the tragedy, and I suspect that includes some posters on AR15.com. This is clearly a man beside himself with grief and this is entirely understandable.
I can honestly say that, had one of my sons been killed in an identical situation, I would have requested that the officers not be charged. Every one of us who have had a round go over the top of a berm, a ricochet "zing" somewhere unintended, or took a shot at a running deer could have found ourselves living with the same unintended result and grieving for a life we never intended to take. Let's not let the horrible, tragic death of a 5 year old little boy push us toward a society where every unintended consequence is the basis for criminal charges.
When I first posted on this subject, I missed the fact that it occurred in Oklahoma. I quoted the the Texas definition of "reckless" and the TPC provision for manslaughter and those are obviously not applicable to Oklahoma. However, I think the Texas standard is correct and that prosecution would not have be reasonable in Texas. I believe the higher level of culpability in the Texas definition of "reckless" is a reasonable balance between what we colloquially consider an "accident" and conduct that warrants prosecution.
I know I'm in the minority on this case, but I just don't see the poor judgment exercised under the facts of this case rising to the level that it requires criminal prosecution. (If you've forgotten the facts, read the posts that set out the safety efforts the officers took before shooting. Yes, they were ineffective, but the officer didn't just walk up and start shooting.) There are times when we simply must accept that people sometimes make tragic mistakes that don't rise to the level of criminal culpability with equally tragic results, and be willing to offer forgiveness and understanding. I realize it takes a far stronger person to do that than to call for their heads, but in which world do we want to live?
Chas.
Every year in the Houston area, parents accidentally kill their children, either directly or through failure to supervise. In the last two years alone, I recall three reports of parents or close relatives who have run over their children in driveways, at least two have had small children drown in swimming pools and one shot his teenage daughter ,mistaking her for a burglar if I remember correctly. Every single year in Texas, people die in hunting accidents, most of whom are shot when mistaken for game. These people are not charged. Why? Because these were terrible, but entirely preventable accidents.
I am not making light of the death of this child; to the contrary, I feel it's a horrible tragedy. I also don't blame the parents for being upset at the apparent plea bargain; but that's why relatives cannot and should not have a say in whether a defendant is charged. That's a decision that must be made by people who can be objective and grieving parents are not among them. The post of the little boy's grief-stricken father proves this to be true. He apparently blames not only the officers for the death of his son, but everyone who disagrees with his view of the facts surrounding the tragedy, and I suspect that includes some posters on AR15.com. This is clearly a man beside himself with grief and this is entirely understandable.
I can honestly say that, had one of my sons been killed in an identical situation, I would have requested that the officers not be charged. Every one of us who have had a round go over the top of a berm, a ricochet "zing" somewhere unintended, or took a shot at a running deer could have found ourselves living with the same unintended result and grieving for a life we never intended to take. Let's not let the horrible, tragic death of a 5 year old little boy push us toward a society where every unintended consequence is the basis for criminal charges.
When I first posted on this subject, I missed the fact that it occurred in Oklahoma. I quoted the the Texas definition of "reckless" and the TPC provision for manslaughter and those are obviously not applicable to Oklahoma. However, I think the Texas standard is correct and that prosecution would not have be reasonable in Texas. I believe the higher level of culpability in the Texas definition of "reckless" is a reasonable balance between what we colloquially consider an "accident" and conduct that warrants prosecution.
I know I'm in the minority on this case, but I just don't see the poor judgment exercised under the facts of this case rising to the level that it requires criminal prosecution. (If you've forgotten the facts, read the posts that set out the safety efforts the officers took before shooting. Yes, they were ineffective, but the officer didn't just walk up and start shooting.) There are times when we simply must accept that people sometimes make tragic mistakes that don't rise to the level of criminal culpability with equally tragic results, and be willing to offer forgiveness and understanding. I realize it takes a far stronger person to do that than to call for their heads, but in which world do we want to live?
Chas.
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hoss4570
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 21
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:13 pm
- Location: Odessa TEXAS
Re: Stray bullet fired by police officer kills 5 year old boy
I'd say the family feels FAR worse and will suffer many more sleepless nights than the cops. Slap on the wrists................... 
Life member N.R.A.
Take a kid shootin'
ALWAYS count your shots
PROUD C.H.L. holder
Take a kid shootin'
ALWAYS count your shots
PROUD C.H.L. holder