Package of CHL changes

What should be on the 2007 agenda for CHL's?

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Package of CHL changes

Postby fiftycal » Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:31 pm

Here is my wish list for CHL changes;

1. Get rid of SA/NSA

2. Lower new CHL class time to 6 hours.

"Non-violent dispute resolution" is crap, time waster and unneeded. If you don't read the whole damm book, you can get thru the Penal code in 2 hours AND have a good discussion of lethal force.

3. Refine what a "courthouse" is. Does this include a city hall that has a city court? How about County Commisioner court? What offices? Now that some fool tried to shoot someone in Ft. Worth, they are putting up metal detectors. Are CHL's allowed thru this?

4. REQUIRE off-limits publically owned sites to provide for storage of CHL guns.

5. Institute the "guns in car" are allowed even in 30.06 "off-limits" areas (IE, the Oklahoma law)

How's that?
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Narrow definitions

Postby tomneal » Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:18 am

For CHL Purposes only


Along with a more narrow definition of a courthouse, I would like a more narrow definition of a "School".

To me a "School" is a Public (government) school grades K through 12. Employees of the school should be able to carry with a CHL.

"School" should not include colleges and universities.
"School" should not include "Trade Schools".
"School" should not include "Home Schools".
"School" should not include "Private Schools".
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Postby apowell » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:23 pm

fiftycal: "Non-violent dispute resolution" is crap, time waster and unneeded. If you don't read the whole damm book, you can get thru the Penal code in 2 hours AND have a good discussion of lethal force.


I don't think we talked about non-violent displute resolution (NvDR) at all except to clarify that you can't shoot someone for calling you names.

We spent most of the time discussing when the person was "paid for" (the instructors favorite term for go ahead and kill them, but call it "stopping them" when the police show up).

How many of you actually talked much about NvDR in your class?
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Postby Kalrog » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:30 pm

apowell wrote:How many of you actually talked much about NvDR in your class?


I did in my class.
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Postby jimlongley » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:40 pm

apowell wrote:How many of you actually talked much about NvDR in your class?


We actually had quite a lot of it, and there were questions about it on the test.
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Postby HighVelocity » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:14 pm

No NVDR in my class.
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Re: Package of CHL changes

Postby nitrogen » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:38 pm

fiftycal wrote:Here is my wish list for CHL changes;


4. REQUIRE off-limits publically owned sites to provide for storage of CHL guns.


Add a statute that invalidates criminal tresspas if they do not provide this. It's the law in Arizona, and most places just ignore it.
5. Institute the "guns in car" are allowed even in 30.06 "off-limits" areas (IE, the Oklahoma law)


You'll have to fight for this one. I'm all for it, though. Perhaps issue something like the above storage instead?

I can hear the rhetoric now. "THE NRA WANTS TO FORCE BUSINESS OWNERS TO ACCEPT GUNS ON THEIR PROPERTY! BOO HISS!"

How's that?[/quote]
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Postby Kyle Brown » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:52 pm

apowell wrote:
fiftycal: "Non-violent dispute resolution" is crap, time waster and unneeded. If you don't read the whole damm book, you can get thru the Penal code in 2 hours AND have a good discussion of lethal force.


I don't think we talked about non-violent displute resolution (NvDR) at all except to clarify that you can't shoot someone for calling you names.

We spent most of the time discussing when the person was "paid for" (the instructors favorite term for go ahead and kill them, but call it "stopping them" when the police show up).

How many of you actually talked much about NvDR in your class?


I spend an easy two hours covering NVDR. The majority of students seem to get a lot from it, and as someone mentioned, there are some NVDR questions on the test.
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Postby BobCat » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:48 am

Good NVDR segment in my original class; theories of why/how people get combative, and how to cool things off before they boil over. Not much on how to recognize the times when cooling off isn't going to work, and more active means of conflict resolution are about to become appropriate.

Too bad the guy who gave that class retired from teaching CHL. Never forget his name though - Ken Moore, and he didn't even work for Sears. He taught the best class I've had.

No NVDR in either of my renewal classes.

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Postby oilman » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:40 am

Good NVDR in my class as well.
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Postby nitrogen » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:50 am

Oh heck, in my class, we even did Role playing. We had some women in the class, and the instructor really got in their faces, just as much as the guys. I think it was valuable for everyone.

Admittedly, NVDR is there for somewhat political reasons, but those reasons are good ones in my opinion.
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Re: Package of CHL changes

Postby stevie_d_64 » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:58 pm

fiftycal wrote:Here is my wish list for CHL changes;

1. Get rid of SA/NSA

2. Lower new CHL class time to 6 hours.

"Non-violent dispute resolution" is crap, time waster and unneeded. If you don't read the whole damm book, you can get thru the Penal code in 2 hours AND have a good discussion of lethal force.

3. Refine what a "courthouse" is. Does this include a city hall that has a city court? How about County Commisioner court? What offices? Now that some fool tried to shoot someone in Ft. Worth, they are putting up metal detectors. Are CHL's allowed thru this?

4. REQUIRE off-limits publically owned sites to provide for storage of CHL guns.

5. Institute the "guns in car" are allowed even in 30.06 "off-limits" areas (IE, the Oklahoma law)

How's that?


Can't believe I missed this one...

#1 ok...

#2 I think you could squeeze it down to 6 hours and not miss any material thats needs covering...8 hours is pretty long...

#2 1/2 - I do not agree...Conflict resolution puts a real face on where you are when it comes to knowing how responsible and accountable you HAVE to be (no acceptions!) with carrying a firearm for these purposes.

#3 I agree...There are quite a few ambiguities in some terms, and they need to be better defined...

#4 Big time agree...

#5 I agree as well...
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Postby KBCraig » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:19 pm

Our LEOs can attest that more time is spent on NVDR than anything else. It also takes much more time and practice than learning to draw and shoot, even under pressure.

I believe good "verbal aikido" skills make you a better shooter under pressure, because you learn to controll your emotions and not get rattled.

That said, I think NVDR should only be brought up in CHL class as a thinking point, a reminder, and a pointer to get some more training. You can't teach it, nor test it, in 8 hours.

One point I'd make if I were teaching: once you fill you hand, your options are severely limited. You're immediately one handed, and that limits your options immensely. You can shoot, or you can run, but you can't let the BG within grabbing range. Open hand options are out. So are other options, like pepper spray. If the BG doesn't stop at the sight of your gun, you're probably going to have to shoot him.

Point being: be prepared to draw, but if you're not justified in shooting him, or if things aren't escalating quickly in that direction, don't draw.

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Postby stevie_d_64 » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:24 pm

KBCraig wrote:Our LEOs can attest that more time is spent on NVDR than anything else. It also takes much more time and practice than learning to draw and shoot, even under pressure.

I believe good "verbal aikido" skills make you a better shooter under pressure, because you learn to controll your emotions and not get rattled.

That said, I think NVDR should only be brought up in CHL class as a thinking point, a reminder, and a pointer to get some more training. You can't teach it, nor test it, in 8 hours.

One point I'd make if I were teaching: once you fill you hand, your options are severely limited. You're immediately one handed, and that limits your options immensely. You can shoot, or you can run, but you can't let the BG within grabbing range. Open hand options are out. So are other options, like pepper spray. If the BG doesn't stop at the sight of your gun, you're probably going to have to shoot him.

Point being: be prepared to draw, but if you're not justified in shooting him, or if things aren't escalating quickly in that direction, don't draw.

Kevin


Absolutely!

I also totally agree that it takes more than the time alotted to instruct, and more importantly instill a mindset in conflict resolution procedures...It almost has to be custom to each individual for it to take root and develop...

I actually strive to become a student of conflict resolution...Which in turn has made me a stronger person...Not necessarily a weak or retreative type personality, but one that is confident, yet guarded enough to know what the best course of action is in many types of general situations...And have a backup plan just in case...

The key is to also never assume you know everything or see everything for what it is either...
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Re: Narrow definitions

Postby racer32 » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:39 am

tomneal wrote:For CHL Purposes only
Employees of the school should be able to carry with a CHL.


I'm 100% behind this one, but unfortunately the teachers' unions WILL squawk and bray about ANY CHL carry in a school. FWIW, my wife is president of her TCTA local and couldn't even get any state officers to even talk to her about CHL carry at the recent state convention.
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