Concealed carry of non-firearm weapons

What should be on the 2007 agenda for CHL's?

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Concealed carry of non-firearm weapons

Postby Paladin » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:14 pm

I hear that in some states like Florida, a concealed handgun license also allows the license holder to carry other weapons (like clubs) that would otherwise be illegal to carry.

It seems to me that the law is rather silly that a Texas CHL holder could legally carry a gun but would be a criminal for also carrying a 6 inch knife or a club.

I like to carry a knife along with my gun and I don't see why it should be limited to 5.5 inches or less. Why shouldn't I be able to carry a dagger or Bowie knife?
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Postby GrandmasterB » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:42 pm

I agree. And more specifically, why can't I carry an automatic knife? I like being able to open it one-handed and very fast. Although I can do this also with assisted-opening knives that aren't classified as automatics.

It just seems like very bad law to me. :roll:
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Re: Concealed carry of non-firearm weapons

Postby RatMan » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:49 pm

Paladin wrote:I hear that in some states like Florida, a concealed handgun license also allows the license holder to carry other weapons (like clubs) that would otherwise be illegal to carry.

It seems to me that the law is rather silly that a Texas CHL holder could legally carry a gun but would be a criminal for also carrying a 6 inch knife or a club.


I agree. My guess would be nobody has taken the time to really talk about it to the elected officals here. Maybe we need to do this before/during the 2005 session?
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carrying knives/clubs

Postby fiftycal » Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:30 pm

You should check the existing statutes more closely. It is already legal to carry an "illegal" knive or club if you have a CHL and are carrying your handgun. Look at penal code sec. 46.15
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RE

Postby Paladin » Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:42 pm

I found section 46.15

http://www.bakers-legal-pages.com/pc/4615.htm

"~ (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

~ ~ (6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying; "

and section 46.02

http://www.bakers-legal-pages.com/pc/4602.htm

"Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club. "

So it looks like fiftycal may be correct. Of course I'm not a lawyer.
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Re: RE

Postby antfarmer » Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:08 pm

Paladin wrote:I found section 46.15

http://www.bakers-legal-pages.com/pc/4615.htm

"~ (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

~ ~ (6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying; "



So if you have your CHL with you, it might be OK to carry an automatic knife, as long as you also have a gun. No gun, no knife, is that about it?

Also, would you be required to keep the knife concealed as well? Or might you be able to use it as the perfectly legitimate tool that it really is?
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Postby fiftycal » Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:02 pm

Not an "automatic" knife. Check the definition of "illegal knife" in sec 46.01. Basically it's a knife with a blade over 5 1/2/ inches or a double edged blade. And it would be a good idea to conceal it, but I can't find anywhere that it has to be.
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Postby Greybeard » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:17 pm

Hello, fellow "gunnies".

My first post here while checking out this new forum. Anyhoo, I'm not seeing anything that leads me to believe (nor have I ever been told) that a Texas CHL makes an "illegal" knife legal ...
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Postby fiftycal » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:25 pm

"I'm not seeing anything that leads me to believe (nor have I ever been told) that a Texas CHL makes an "illegal" knife legal ..."

Really? What is the charge going to be? Carrying an "illegal" knife legally? DPS agreed that having a CHL and a handgun, does, indeed exempt you from PC 46.02 in the last instructor renewal class I took.
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Postby antfarmer » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:36 pm

The point I'm making is that it would appear that nonapplicability per 46.15 only seems to work if you are carrying a concealed handgun and your CHL. In those instances where one might wish to leave the gun at home, you couldn't carry your illegal knife or club even with your CHL.
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Postby rickb308 » Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:45 pm

antfarmer wrote:The point I'm making is that it would appear that nonapplicability per 46.15 only seems to work if you are carrying a concealed handgun and your CHL. In those instances where one might wish to leave the gun at home, you couldn't carry your illegal knife or club even with your CHL.


Exactly.

That's why 46.15 (b)(6) explicitly states:

(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
license...

But who wants to be the test case?

Full text:

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/petoc.html

§ 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Club" means an instrument that is specially
designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious
bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument, and
includes but is not limited to the following:
(A) blackjack;
(B) nightstick;
(C) mace;
(D) tomahawk.

(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed,
made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.

(6) "Illegal knife" means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half
inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab
another by being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk,
stilletto, and poniard;
(D) bowie knife;
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.

§ 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person
commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly
carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.

§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and
46.03 do not apply to:

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;
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Postby rickb308 » Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:46 pm

fiftycal wrote:Not an "automatic" knife. Check the definition of "illegal knife" in sec 46.01. Basically it's a knife with a blade over 5 1/2/ inches or a double edged blade. And it would be a good idea to conceal it, but I can't find anywhere that it has to be.


Not just 5 & 1/2 inches, but:

(6) "Illegal knife" means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half
inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab
another by being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk,
stilletto, and poniard;
(D) bowie knife;
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/petoc.html
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Postby Lindy » Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:46 pm

Friends, thanks for a very illuminating discussion, which is interesting to me, because I practice the art of Iaido, which involves the use of Japanese swords. It would appear, then, that I can legally carry my swords in my vehicles, as long as I'm carrying a handgun and my permit, without the restrictions which would otherwise apply to them, which meant that I could only travel between my residence and the place where I practice, without any stops en route.
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Postby rickb308 » Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:28 pm

Lindy wrote:It would appear, then, that I can legally carry my swords in my vehicles,


§ 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person
commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly
carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.

Need a lawyer here.

What constitutes "on or about his person"?

Does that mean in a backpack, backseat of a car, bed of a truck?
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Postby dolanp » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:36 pm

Speaking of knives, does anyone know if butterfly knives are technically illegal in Texas? I was reading something that an expert wrote some time ago and he had said that in his opinion the butterfly knife shouldn't be illegal under the law but that they might still try and book you for it.

Here is the definition of a "switchblade knife" under 46.01 (11):
(11) "Switchblade knife" means any knife that has a
blade that folds, closes, or retracts into the handle or sheath, and
that:
(A) opens automatically by pressure applied to a
button or other device located on the handle; or
(B) opens or releases a blade from the handle or
sheath by the force of gravity or by the application of centrifugal
force.


It is section B that is questionable. Just curious if any of you might know more or have spoken to any LEOs or attorneys about it.
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