Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

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Charles L. Cotton
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Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:02 pm

Is an IDPA/USPSA/3-Gun match training for a gunfight? NO!! Does tactical training alone prepare you for a gunfight? NO!! Combine both and you are far more likely to be capable of being victorious on the day we all pray never comes. The linked article is excellent.

Chas.

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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby Beiruty » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:27 pm

Fresh meat, and Battle shock have a meaning.
The good thing humans do adapt quickly.
As for the above, those who do participate in the above competitive shooting are 10x better prepared than those who do not.
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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby Bitter Clinger » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:08 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Is an IDPA/USPSA/3-Gun match training for a gunfight? NO!! Does tactical training alone prepare you for a gunfight? NO!! Combine both and you are far more likely to be capable of being victorious on the day we all pray never comes. The linked article is excellent.

Chas.

http://recoiljunkie.com/from-the-world- ... f-defense/


Thanks for posting. Very well balanced article IMHO.
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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby AndyC » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:28 pm

Beiruty wrote:As for the above, those who do participate in the above competitive shooting are 10x better prepared than those who do not.

Agreed. Competence with firearms learned under the stress and speed of competition is a confidence-builder - very important when the stuff hits the fan. Add some knowledge of tactics and awareness, and one is very far ahead of the curve.
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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby george » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:12 am

We see a lot of new people come out for IDPA. The main advantages I see for them, is they learn their equipment is not as reliable as they initially thought, and they learn to manipulate their pistol safely. And, I believe these are big steps.
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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby flechero » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:40 pm

Good article. The line that stood out most to me was this:
You will operate at the lowest level MASTERED.

That should be motivation for all of us.

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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby Syntyr » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:19 pm

flechero wrote:Good article. The line that stood out most to me was this:
You will operate at the lowest level MASTERED.

That should be motivation for all of us.


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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby LeonCarr » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:38 pm

I have been competitive shooting (PPC, IPSC/USPSA, IDPA) off and on since 1993. Since that time I have tried to focused more on tactical training than competitive shooting for several reasons:

1. Gamers. Anytime you have a "game" with "rules" people are going to try to bend the rules or break the rules without getting caught. Also, most courses of fire, even in IDPA which is supposed to be more realistic, isn't. On one stage during a USPSA match, a 38 round hose fest out to 50 yards, one shooter, a Vietnam era Green Beret, as the buzzer went off he unloaded his 1911, holstered it, walked off the line, went to his truck, retrieved his 20 Inch Colt AR and several 30 round magazines, and walked back to the line and started to load and make ready. He was DQed, told the RO that if he saw 38 bad guys he would either do what he just did or run :). He left the match.

2. Whiners. I have seen grown men cry more at shooting matches than at any other place.

3. Standing Around. As I age traveling 2 hours or more round trip to take 6 hours to fire 125 rounds or less just does not appeal to me anymore.

In a good tactical training course you spend most of the time learning and shooting to win the fight, instead of being told that you are never going to be a master class shooter because you stepped out of a box made out of 1 inch PVC pipe too soon or too late on the last stage.

Just my .02,
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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby Bitter Clinger » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:03 pm

LeonCarr wrote:I have been competitive shooting (PPC, IPSC/USPSA, IDPA) off and on since 1993. Since that time I have tried to focused more on tactical training than competitive shooting for several reasons:

1. Gamers. Anytime you have a "game" with "rules" people are going to try to bend the rules or break the rules without getting caught. Also, most courses of fire, even in IDPA which is supposed to be more realistic, isn't. On one stage during a USPSA match, a 38 round hose fest out to 50 yards, one shooter, a Vietnam era Green Beret, as the buzzer went off he unloaded his 1911, holstered it, walked off the line, went to his truck, retrieved his 20 Inch Colt AR and several 30 round magazines, and walked back to the line and started to load and make ready. He was DQed, told the RO that if he saw 38 bad guys he would either do what he just did or run :). He left the match.

2. Whiners. I have seen grown men cry more at shooting matches than at any other place.

3. Standing Around. As I age traveling 2 hours or more round trip to take 6 hours to fire 125 rounds or less just does not appeal to me anymore.

In a good tactical training course you spend most of the time learning and shooting to win the fight, instead of being told that you are never going to be a master class shooter because you stepped out of a box made out of 1 inch PVC pipe too soon or too late on the last stage.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr


"rlol" Some excellent observations. I plan to share with my BIL in Colorado who recently reported almost exactly the same sentinments to me in a phone call...
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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby bblhd672 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:47 pm

LeonCarr wrote:I have been competitive shooting (PPC, IPSC/USPSA, IDPA) off and on since 1993. Since that time I have tried to focused more on tactical training than competitive shooting for several reasons:

1. Gamers. Anytime you have a "game" with "rules" people are going to try to bend the rules or break the rules without getting caught. Also, most courses of fire, even in IDPA which is supposed to be more realistic, isn't. On one stage during a USPSA match, a 38 round hose fest out to 50 yards, one shooter, a Vietnam era Green Beret, as the buzzer went off he unloaded his 1911, holstered it, walked off the line, went to his truck, retrieved his 20 Inch Colt AR and several 30 round magazines, and walked back to the line and started to load and make ready. He was DQed, told the RO that if he saw 38 bad guys he would either do what he just did or run :). He left the match.

2. Whiners. I have seen grown men cry more at shooting matches than at any other place.

3. Standing Around. As I age traveling 2 hours or more round trip to take 6 hours to fire 125 rounds or less just does not appeal to me anymore.

In a good tactical training course you spend most of the time learning and shooting to win the fight, instead of being told that you are never going to be a master class shooter because you stepped out of a box made out of 1 inch PVC pipe too soon or too late on the last stage.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr


So if I understand you correctly, competitive shooting is just one part of training to be a better gunfighter. Once you have reached a certain level of proficiency with your weapons in competitive shooting, then it's time to concentrate on tactical while maintaining proficiency.
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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby Beiruty » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:49 pm

bblhd672 wrote:
LeonCarr wrote:I have been competitive shooting (PPC, IPSC/USPSA, IDPA) off and on since 1993. Since that time I have tried to focused more on tactical training than competitive shooting for several reasons:

1. Gamers. Anytime you have a "game" with "rules" people are going to try to bend the rules or break the rules without getting caught. Also, most courses of fire, even in IDPA which is supposed to be more realistic, isn't. On one stage during a USPSA match, a 38 round hose fest out to 50 yards, one shooter, a Vietnam era Green Beret, as the buzzer went off he unloaded his 1911, holstered it, walked off the line, went to his truck, retrieved his 20 Inch Colt AR and several 30 round magazines, and walked back to the line and started to load and make ready. He was DQed, told the RO that if he saw 38 bad guys he would either do what he just did or run :). He left the match.

2. Whiners. I have seen grown men cry more at shooting matches than at any other place.

3. Standing Around. As I age traveling 2 hours or more round trip to take 6 hours to fire 125 rounds or less just does not appeal to me anymore.

In a good tactical training course you spend most of the time learning and shooting to win the fight, instead of being told that you are never going to be a master class shooter because you stepped out of a box made out of 1 inch PVC pipe too soon or too late on the last stage.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr


So if I understand you correctly, competitive shooting is just one part of training to be a better gunfighter. Once you have reached a certain level of proficiency with your weapons in competitive shooting, then it's time to concentrate on tactical while maintaining proficiency.


Tactical, is that the part of you working as a team while running with guns?

For self-defense situation, Most of the competition "training" will get you procficient using your gear, pistol/AR/Shotgun.

Now if you would like to learn how to clear a structure, or move under cover of friendly fire, or provide fire for cover...Or, if you would like to learn how to advance into positions, or eliminate multiple threats from distance...

I recommend enlisting in the US Marine Corps.
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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby Beiruty » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:55 pm

Oh, Personal defense, tactical, paramilitary, or military all of that do not buy you iron legs when you are in the deep deep mess.
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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby flechero » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:17 pm

LeonCarr wrote:I have been competitive shooting (PPC, IPSC/USPSA, IDPA) off and on since 1993. Since that time I have tried to focused more on tactical training than competitive shooting for several reasons:

1. Gamers. Anytime you have a "game" with "rules" people are going to try to bend the rules or break the rules without getting caught. Also, most courses of fire, even in IDPA which is supposed to be more realistic, isn't. On one stage during a USPSA match, a 38 round hose fest out to 50 yards, one shooter, a Vietnam era Green Beret, as the buzzer went off he unloaded his 1911, holstered it, walked off the line, went to his truck, retrieved his 20 Inch Colt AR and several 30 round magazines, and walked back to the line and started to load and make ready. He was DQed, told the RO that if he saw 38 bad guys he would either do what he just did or run :). He left the match.

2. Whiners. I have seen grown men cry more at shooting matches than at any other place.

3. Standing Around. As I age traveling 2 hours or more round trip to take 6 hours to fire 125 rounds or less just does not appeal to me anymore.

In a good tactical training course you spend most of the time learning and shooting to win the fight, instead of being told that you are never going to be a master class shooter because you stepped out of a box made out of 1 inch PVC pipe too soon or too late on the last stage.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr



So at a minimum you should be ultra proficient with draw, reloads, shooting on the move, use of cover, concealment and multiple target engagements. :fire

Sounds like a great skill set to have!!


Sounds like gaming can be whatever you make it... take the "game" too seriously and you'll get caught up in it.

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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:31 pm

I've gone to more tactical training courses than pretty much anyone I know. They were great and I learned, practiced and honed a lot of skills. Not a single course I've taken put me under any significant psychological or emotional stress. Many courses like Urban Rifle and even Precision Rifle (a/k/a counter-sniper school) involved a lot of physical stress.

I agree that when a timer is added to the mix, it's a game, unless we're talking about timing the draw to first shot fired. Nevertheless, when shooting in competition, it adds pressure that cannot be duplicated in tactical training courses. There is great value in that whether you admit it is training or not. It may not be "tactical training," but there is an element of emotional/psychological/physiological learning.

There is no serious argument that USPSA/IPSC even remotely replicates self-defense shooting. However, to claim that IDPA scenarios are not reflective of self-defense scenarios based upon a relatively few matches with even fewer clubs is unfounded. Our scenario designer, Mark Stavrakis, is a master at the craft and our monthly matches are better than all regional matches and most state championships. (Yes, I'm biased, but I'm also correct.) His scenarios are challenging not only from a skill-at-arms perspective, but also from a mental or decision-making perspective. There is great value in that, especially in terms of target identification, target acquisition and engagement. Yes, a timer makes it a game, but it also encourages people to shoot fast due to the mental pressure. Guess what, so does fear when you are in an actual self-defense situation. Once again, using a timer does add an element of "training" although IDPA remains a game.

I agree that some tactics used by people wanting to win a match v. survive a deadly encounter do not help them prepare for a real gunfight. I will never win IDPA matches because I shoot them like I would fight. For example, when it's possible under the rules and scenario description, winning the match would encourage shooters to get close to the target so they can shoot faster with fewer points down. I distance myself from what scares me and rely upon my marksmanship. When doing a "tactical reload," most shooters stuff the partial magazine in a pocket or anywhere other than the mag carrier. They tell others not to put it back in the mag carrier. When I do a "tactical reload," I grab the last mag on my belt, then put the partial mag in its place. Yes, it's slower to do it that way, but if I need that partial mag later in a fight, it'll be much faster to get it out of my mag carrier than out of my pocket.

The author of the article I linked is a SWAT team member and trainer. His experience in the real world supports the contention that competitive shooting in action sports improves performance in gunfights. Call it a game, call it training, ridicule it if you will, but at the end of the fight, the guys who train AND COMPETE, tend to do better on a two-way range.

Chas.
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Re: Training + competitive shooting = better gunfighter

Postby JustSomeOldGuy » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:36 am

Does the guy that went back to the truck for his AR think that in a real life situation, the bad guys are going to wait for him to go back to his truck? :totap:

re: the whiners
you enticed liberals into competing in your matches? Awesome! :thumbs2:
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