Newbie question, I'm confused as can be.

[captainkbt]

I think your instructor is pushing it a bit. I would leave it in the car. Heres how Texas Penal Code defines "premises".....

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

The jogging track is not part of a driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, or parking area. So I wouldn't push it. I think the intent of the law is to allow people to transport their handgun and be able to leave it in the vehicle or walk vehicle to vehicle without entering school grounds.

A jogging track isn't part of a building either unless it's inside.

Agreed. But the "premises" defined in the statutes don't say "jogging track" either. You are welcome to use your own common sense.....to me its not worth risking......

[SewTexas]

I think your instructor is pushing it a bit. I would leave it in the car. Heres how Texas Penal Code defines "premises".....

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

The jogging track is not part of a driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, or parking area. So I wouldn't push it. I think the intent of the law is to allow people to transport their handgun and be able to leave it in the vehicle or walk vehicle to vehicle without entering school grounds.

A jogging track isn't part of a building either unless it's inside.

Agreed. But the "premises" defined in the statutes don't say "jogging track" either. You are welcome to use your own common sense.....to me its not worth risking......

anytime we start thinking like this right here, we start loosing ground....not just on guns, but on homeschooling, on government education teaching stuffs, on insurance, etc.

[Topbuilder]

"And in a short time, you will feel confident in what/where/when you can carry."

Strange day yesterday that fits the situation here. My kids were in two parades. The local parade my youngest is in marching band. = no carry. The second parade both children are in the parade but, for a non school event. = carry ok. MANY other school events and school children present... just not my kids. Neither parade on school property. Crazy? Yes. Stupid? Yes.

[treeman]

In regard to parades or zoo field trips, I see it more as a question of who is the sponsor or organizer of the event. If the school is the organizer, I can see the no carry, but if the kids are just there for a city organized event, I see no problem with carrying.

[C-dub]

In regard to parades or zoo field trips, I see it more as a question of who is the sponsor or organizer of the event. If the school is the organizer, I can see the no carry, but if the kids are just there for a city organized event, I see no problem with carrying.

The school will, obviously, be the organizer of the field trip, but they will have absolutely no control over the premises or property of a city or privately owned zoo or where ever. IIRC, that was the crux of Charles' point about such circumstances. It was either intended or ultimately depends on who is in control of the premises or property.

[treeman]

Sorry C-dub I wasn't very clear what I was refering to. You are correct in what you said. I was refering to Topbuilder's post about the two parades and not being able to carry in the first one because his son was marching with the school band. My thought was that the marching with the school band is not the issue that determines but what kind of parade it is and where. Our local civic parade has LOTs of school bands along with all the other parade type things, but is organized by a civic organization that does the inviting. My assumption has been that concealed carry is not an issue.

[Topbuilder]

Sorry C-dub I wasn't very clear what I was refering to. You are correct in what you said. I was refering to Topbuilder's post about the two parades and not being able to carry in the first one because his son was marching with the school band. My thought was that the marching with the school band is not the issue that determines but what kind of parade it is and where. Our local civic parade has LOTs of school bands along with all the other parade type things, but is organized by a civic organization that does the inviting. My assumption has been that concealed carry is not an issue.

Well, maybe I'm wrong and erring on the side of caution. The parade was a mandatory school function. I delivered him and his base drum to school property to meet his group. I parked on school property. We left from school property. ??

[C-dub]

Parades on public property are even less of a problem. You are not IN the parade. Just because your child or someone you know is in the parade and you wouldn't be there if they weren't makes no difference. If I were doing this, I would carry and not give it a second thought. It is the same as dropping off or picking up from school any other day.

[Topbuilder]

I see. The main point being the parade was not put on by the school. Thanks.

[chasfm11]

anytime we start thinking like this right here, we start loosing ground....not just on guns, but on homeschooling, on government education teaching stuffs, on insurance, etc.

I have several different views.

- I believe that we win or loose ground based on our willingness to challenge the excesses in areas like you mentioned. Specifically on home schooling, there was a story yesterday about an Ohio lawmaker who has proposed law to "evaluate" parents before they are allowed to home school. Today I will be sending letters to Ohio. Yesterday, I sent a letter to the principal who suspected the 5 year old boy for making a gun gesture on the playground. It we let those kinds of things pass without respectfully challenging them, we have conceded those points.

- I sometimes believe that we on this forum over-think some of these fine points. And while I agree that understanding the finest points of the law is good, the reality is going to be far different. The cop that arrests me is unlikely to have given the law as much thought as I have. He or she is looking at the overall environment and will act and then let the judge and the courts decide. My goal is to stay out of the initial arrest, not argue the law at that point. Carried further, the judge and possibly a jury is supposed to follow the law but if you have participated in that process, you understand that it often is not done on the nuance level. While I might have been technically right, the jury's decision may well hinge on my personal matter in court rather than the finer points of the law.

- As long as things go OK, concealed is still concealed and there will never be a problem. If no one ever has an occasion to ask you for an ID while you are on school property, your risks are minimal. But I have been in a position where an LEO might ask for an ID. Here was my story.

Our town has extensive bike trails which I use 3 times a week for cardio exercise. One of those trails passes near a middle school and then across the bus path of an elementary school. It was while I was on the latter that I was challenged by the principal of that school as to my purpose. I told him cardio exercise. It turns out that he has an issue with the town for putting the bike path there. Like so many of the school administrators, he views the school and anyone near as part of his own personal fiefdom. He could have simply told me that he didn't want me there but instead, he lectured me about how my approach to exercise was all wrong and that riding my bike there was detracting from any overall benefits of the exercise to me. It was all that I could do to hold my tongue. There was no doubt in my mind but that any retort from me would have resulted in the police being summoned. He ranted about "you people" suggesting that other exercisers had violated his kingdom, too.

I have no faith at all that things would go well in an incident at the elementary. In the middle school, the PE teachers have their students run along the bike path for over a half a mile. If something happened to me on that stretch and police were summoned, I'm not sure that they would have the same view of "school sponsored activity" as the statute has and that it would cost me thousands of dollars to make my point in the courts.

So my gun stays at home when I ride my bike. I've been riding since 2005 and have only had the one "discussion" so the odds should be in my favor but I take the view that a second occurrence may be overdue and that tomorrow is the day for it. I do not see how I've detracted from our overall rights with my decision.

[txinstructor]

So my understanding was that college campuses were not allowed to be carried on even without a 30.06 sign, but in my CHL class yesterday the instructor posed that this was no longer true by giving this scenario, "I can go to Katy high school and carry all around and go jogging on the track, but the moment the band comes out to practice or to the football team comes out I have to leave." Is this true? I live in the Houston area and want to know if I can carry around Lonestar College or if I need to leave it in the car? Obviously I'm several weeks out from facing this dilemma but I just want to know ahead of time.

I think your instructor is pushing it a bit. I would leave it in the car. Heres how Texas Penal Code defines "premises".....

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

The jogging track is not part of a driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, or parking area. So I wouldn't push it. I think the intent of the law is to allow people to transport their handgun and be able to leave it in the vehicle or walk vehicle to vehicle without entering school grounds.

The definition of premises is pretty clear, but like many CHL laws things get muddy again. 46.03 starts with "premises" but continues to say weapons are prohibited on "any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted". I wonder what the definition of "activity sponsored by a school" is? As was mentioned earlier, until some of these things go to court we won't have clear answers. Maybe one of will win the lottery so we can afford the legal fees to be the test case...

[cb1000rider]

The definition of premises is pretty clear, but like many CHL laws things get muddy again. 46.03 starts with "premises" but continues to say weapons are prohibited on "any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted". I wonder what the definition of "activity sponsored by a school" is? As was mentioned earlier, until some of these things go to court we won't have clear answers. Maybe one of will win the lottery so we can afford the legal fees to be the test case...

Yea, you've got to watch it. And it's complicated. I was recently at a function at the AT&T Center. Walking up to that place, there is no way to tell that it is on the University of Texas campus. And I traced various discussions on who owns it, who pays the taxes on it, and as a hotel there are additional notification laws that are in place. It's about as clear as mud.

If you're conservative - you won't enter a building that might be on campus. You wont' go into a field and you won't attend a public place where there is a school sponsored event. That's the keep-out-of trouble viewpoint. How the law would be enforced and how the law would be adjudicated are possibly different issues.

[howdy]

quoteThe definition of premises is pretty clear, but like many CHL laws things get muddy again. 46.03 starts with "premises" but continues to say weapons are prohibited on "any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted". I wonder what the definition of "activity sponsored by a school" is? As was mentioned earlier, until some of these things go to court we won't have clear answers. Maybe one of will win the lottery so we can afford the legal fees to be the test case...[/quote]


I recall the blond lawyer lady in my initial 2002 Instructor class using the example of the CHL holder having his car washed at a school band car wash. The activity was in a commercial store parking lot. While cleaning out the inside of the car, a student noticed a gun under the seat, told an adult, she called LEO's, CHL guy is arrested for having a gun on the grounds of a school sponsored activity. The lady lawyer said this was the intent of the law. She said a CHL holder would have to leave an area if a school sponsored activity showed up. The long time Instructors know this lady lawyer and she DID NOT like the CHL program or anyone that carried a handgun. In later requal classes, I heard some good "discussions" between her and some of the Instructors.

This is always a discussion point in my CHL classes. The students want a definitive answer to this situation and I can only read them the law. I bring up both sides of equation and tell them to use their best judgement. I explain we are a law abidding group and there is very little case law. I have had the "honor" to serve on 6 jurys...5 criminal and one civil. Each time, the Judge would tell us the law right before we retired to the jury room. If I were on trial and the Judge read the law "ANY grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school....is being conducted, I would be afraid that most would take that statement literally and vote to convict.

I believe the State of Texas does not believe this way. CHL holders are allowed into the State Capitol all day long with multiple school sponsored tours in the building.