Question about use of lethal force when confronted by strangers

[brenlop]

You are allowed to use lethal force to prevent a robbery or attempted robbery, but at what point is it considered a robbery?

If I am walking down a dark street and see someone following me, and I cross the street and change directions, and the person continues to follow - what is a good way to handle this situation? Do you draw and threaten them to stop, as I believe you are allowed to do? Or do you not draw at all until they have verbally demanded you hand over your wallet?

What if someone approaches you and asks for your phone in a very hostile manner? Like, "LET ME USE YOUR _______ PHONE!!!". Is that robbery? Maybe he's just asking to use your phone and he's being a jackass about it. Do you use lethal force?

What if someone approaches you, saying nothing, and starts grabbing you and trying to push you to the ground? They aren't using lethal force, so you can't respond with lethal force, and it's not clear they're trying to rob you. What do you do?

I appreciate any responses and especially if they can cite code to back up their actions. It is not very clear to me, even after my CHL class, in which situations you are legally allowed to use lethal force and when you're allowed to draw and threaten but not actually use lethal force.

[Pawpaw]

You are looking for a black-and-white answer to a question that has about a million shades of grey.

Every situation is different and so there can be no cut and dried answer. Basically, when you are in fear of your life or physical well being, it's time to act. The standard you will be judged against is, "What would a reasonable person do?"

[misterlarry]

I would never shoot anyone over theft of property, however, I have no problem properly defending myself against the stated or implied threat of what will happen to me if I do not surrender my property to a thief.

[Middle Age Russ]

Basically, when you are in fear of your life or physical well being, it's time to act. The standard you will be judged against is, "What would a reasonable person do?"

Pawpaw gets it right with a good basic guideline. Different people, different limitations and circumstances will all play into your perceptions at the time.

[Beiruty]

If I see deadly weapon, be that a rock, crow bar, a pipe, any kind that is force multiplier, the aggressor would see the front side of the business.

[RoyGBiv]

You are looking for a black-and-white answer to a question that has about a million shades of grey.

Every situation is different and so there can be no cut and dried answer. Basically, when you are in fear of your life or physical well being, it's time to act. The standard you will be judged against is, "What would a reasonable person do?"

It's THE question.... without a clear answer.

[Abraham]

"There is no way I will shoot someone if all they want is my wallet, or cash, or car."

"...if all they want..."

How can you be sure after you cooperate with handing over your valuables, the criminal will be so pleased with your helpful nature he'll then disappear into the mists, leaving you/your wife/your children with your life...?

Answer: You can't be sure. Passivity isn't a good plan.

Many have been robbed, cooperated with the robber and then killed.

[jocat54]

I don't have an answer for the question--every situation would have it's own considerations.
As far as shooting someone for property----it's mine and you can't NORMALLY have it---no way to know if that's all they want and what might happen next.
A deadly weapon could just be their hands.

[VMI77]

I would never shoot anyone over theft of property, however, I have no problem properly defending myself against the stated or implied threat of what will happen to me if I do not surrender my property to a thief.

I'm quoting you but I'm really asking this of everyone saying they will never shoot someone over the theft of property....I get it if the guy snatched something and his running off with it, but how do you know that someone with a knife or gun isn't going to stab or shoot you even if you hand over your property? Are you just going to play the odds and assume if you hand it over they won't beat you over the head, stab you, or shoot you? If they have a gun are you just going to trust their trigger discipline? And if they're not armed why would you surrender your property?

I don't see a robbery as being about "property." If you weren't being threatened with violence you'd have no reason to hand over any property. If someone is threatening you with violence unless you hand over your property then saying you'll "never" shoot anyone over theft of property seems tantamount to saying you're going to trust their goodwill not to carry out the threatened violence if you comply. Granted, their are situations where you have to weigh the odds of successful resistance against the odds your attacker will depart without violence once he has your property, but there's a lot of room between there and "never."

[AJSully421]

Hi,
There is no way I will shoot someone if all they want is my wallet, or cash, or car.
If I believe my life, or my wife's life is in danger, then they will be shot.

Do you have a family?

Let's say you get robbed as you exit your vehicle, they take your wallet, car keys and phone. They take your car and immediately head to your house (They have you wallet, with your ID in it... so they know your home address). They use your garage door opener in your car, or they use your key they stole to get in the door, they beat and rape your wife and any female (or even male these days) children and leave them to die... all before you could find a phone to warn them. Admittedly far fetched... but not impossible.

Best case, they dig through your wallet and find a CHL, stake out your house some day in the near future and wait for you to leave for work, then kick in your door and look for other guns that they can steal... and maybe beat and rape your wife...

If you don't have a family, then the worst you could expect is to come home one day to find your place ransacked, and they will keep coming back again and again because you have shown yourself to be spineless.

The point of the story is that there are clearly things involved here that you have not thought all the way through.

I absolutely will shoot to stop in any robbery situation, no second thought, no hesitation. There is too much riding on it for me.

[VMI77]

Hi,
There is no way I will shoot someone if all they want is my wallet, or cash, or car.
If I believe my life, or my wife's life is in danger, then they will be shot.

Do you have a family?

Let's say you get robbed as you exit your vehicle, they take your wallet, car keys and phone. They take your car and immediately head to your house (They have you wallet, with your ID in it... so they know your home address). They use your garage door opener in your car, or they use your key they stole to get in the door, they beat and rape your wife and any female (or even male these days) children and leave them to die... all before you could find a phone to warn them. Admittedly far fetched... but not impossible.

Best case, they dig through your wallet and find a CHL, stake out your house some day in the near future and wait for you to leave for work, then kick in your door and look for other guns that they can steal... and maybe beat and rape your wife...

If you don't have a family, then the worst you could expect is to come home one day to find your place ransacked, and they will keep coming back again and again because you have shown yourself to be spineless.

The point of the story is that there are clearly things involved here that you have not thought all the way through.

I absolutely will shoot to stop in any robbery situation, no second thought, no hesitation. There is too much riding on it for me.

Those scenarios are a concern to me so I don't carry ID with an address in my wallet. They'll have my name, but that's it. I don't think it will be very easy for a typical thug to find my address with just my name. We don't get mail at our physical address, we have PO box, and that PO is close to where I work but a long way from where I live (and the PO box address isn't in my wallet either). Recently, my son was getting a background check for a position with the Feds. With all the info the investigator had he couldn't find our place and had to call us and ask for directions.

My name is pretty common so an internet search will produce a lot of results. That said, I will assume that finding my location is a possibility even if it takes a little while. The "home" location on my car's GPS isn't my home address, but a point several miles away, so if they got my car along with my wallet that would narrow it down a good bit.

[TVegas]

Many people tend to think that drawing a gun, knife, or other deadly weapon is legal if someone is attempting to rob you or commit some other crime, but that is not necessarily the case. The ONLY thing that will generally allow you to legally threaten the use of deadly force is a situation in which a reasonable person (not you or me) would reasonably believe that the use of deadly force was necessary to protect themselves or another person against death or serious injury under the circumstances. So if you draw your weapon before deadly force is actually reasonable, you may be the one who is held responsible if someone is hurt or killed.

What I have said is just a baseline, and many instances will depend on the limitless circumstances and the opinion of law enforcement, so understand that what I have said is not gospel. Take it with a grain of salt.

The safest way I like to think about it is this: We only take a life to save a life. (Not my original idea)

[Abraham]

"Many people tend to think that drawing a gun, knife, or other deadly weapon is legal if someone is attempting to rob you or commit some other crime, but that is not necessarily the case."

"...if someone is attempting to rob you or commit some other crime..."

If someone is attempting to rob me or commit some other crime (presumably/violently aimed at me) you think it unreasonable for me to defend myself with say, a pistol? Or, that if I'm under the threat of such an attack, I have an obligation to give the benefit of the doubt to the robber/criminal?

I should take my time, mull it over, make certain the robber/criminal gets a lot of leeway before I defend myself?

Doesn't compute.

[VMI77]

Many people tend to think that drawing a gun, knife, or other deadly weapon is legal if someone is attempting to rob you or commit some other crime, but that is not necessarily the case. The ONLY thing that will generally allow you to legally threaten the use of deadly force is a situation in which a reasonable person (not you or me) would reasonably believe that the use of deadly force was necessary to protect themselves or another person against death or serious injury under the circumstances. So if you draw your weapon before deadly force is actually reasonable, you may be the one who is held responsible if someone is hurt or killed.

What I have said is just a baseline, and many instances will depend on the limitless circumstances and the opinion of law enforcement, so understand that what I have said is not gospel. Take it with a grain of salt.

The safest way I like to think about it is this: We only take a life to save a life. (Not my original idea)

Quoted from another thread:

9.42 deals with this scenario and states:

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.