"On Board" update - PICS ADDED

[longtooth]

A good review.

[gigag04]

I know some of the tactical schools look down on this mode of carry, but give it a try.

Aren't these guys leading tacticians in self defense handgun though? Might there be something to thier view? Idunno....to each his own - I don't wanna fight. I'll keep my 1911 strongside. Not flaming ya though You seem to know what you're doing with crossdraw carry.

[flintknapper]

I know some of the tactical schools look down on this mode of carry, but give it a try.

Aren't these guys leading tacticians in self defense handgun though? Might there be something to thier view? Idunno....to each his own - I don't wanna fight. I'll keep my 1911 strongside. Not flaming ya though You seem to know what you're doing with crossdraw carry.

Gig,

You'll never get a "fight" from me. We might discuss a subject from different points of view with varying degrees of experience, but...I will never allow it to become a fight.

Just as there are "pros and cons" to shooting stances (Isosceles vs. Weaver etc..), so.. are there advantages and disadvantages to different modes of carry. Naturally, every person will have different requirements.

I'm fine with you keeping your 1911 strongside. I would have mine there, if not for a shoulder injury that forces me to do otherwise.

As far as the instructors at tactical schools are concerned: Yes, I believe for the most part.. they provide good training. Of course, it depends upon where you go, and where they got their training. If you had been to Gunsite in the mid-eighties, you would have found Col. Jeff Cooper.. (a man I greatly respect), teaching pistol craft in a most "dogmatic" way.

If we fast forward about 20 years and examine what Clint Smith is teaching, we will find very different techniques (and attitudes).

Also, consider what you want to get from your training. For home/street defense, I would not seek out John Shaw at Mid-South. If I wanted CQB, SRT, or was a Navy Seal or Delta Force member then yes.

One of the most balanced instructors I know of is Massad Ayoob (although there are others). He is a very critical thinker, quick to find what will work for YOU, and not at all hung up on just one technique.

Back to "cross-draw", I am not advocating that everyone carry this way. I have said this (more than once) here. In a previous post, I merely pointed out simple solutions to what are perceived as "problem" areas for that mode of carry. It is not from "opinion" that I make those statements. It comes from years of carrying that way.

Do not assume that the tactical schools have all of the answers for every person, under all conditions.

Thank you, for your thoughts.

Flint.

[longtooth]

gigag, you are right. This guy knows his stuff. You are right twice. Those guys are leading tactitions. Difference. They are leading tactitions w/ the best equipment on the market, teaching the best defense tactics to those that are strong, general good healthy, & able. That is what they should do to prepare the greatest # with the best training out there. I know flint & he is really practical. When something does not work for an individual because of age, health (my knees), strength (or lack thereof) or as in Quidni's case just plain size, he is creative enough to see something that will work. Everyone has complimented her choice of carry weapons. I'm starting to like them CZ's too. Look at its position where she has it crossdraw. Put that strong side & when she hits her armpit with her thumb she is still an inch & a half from holster clearance. There are several of us practical folks that prepare for the most likely. Crossdraw is my first recomendation for most women. Why? Q's trouble is common. Figure helps hide it better than you think. Still accessable when bending forward w/ arms clutched inside so they cannot be grabbed. Several commented on on how well that BIG gun concealed on the little lady. Bottom line for everyone, find what works (that is why you & me have that box of holsters) ....get proficient w/ it. Edit added. Gigag I like the window sticker too.

[KBCraig]

I look at it like this: the pistol you can effectively cross-draw is better than the same pistol hung up in your strong side armpit. Or, left at home because you couldn't effectively conceal it!

The concerns about sweeping others are all range safety concerns.

Kevin

[gigag04]

They are leading tactitions w/ the best equipment on the market, teaching the best defense tactics to those that are strong, general good healthy, & able. That is what they should do to prepare the greatest # with the best training out there.

Something has struck a chord within me now and it all makes sense. I feel smarter guys!

-nick

[longtooth]

KB is right on the sweep too. No lady (or man for that matter) who is being assaulted, about to be kidnapped, mugged, robbed or raped is going to worry about sweeping a birunneraway. That is not a word according to Mr. Webster, but it is the word that goes there because biSTANDER sure don't go there.

[txinvestigator]

I've been carrying cross-draw for quite a few years, and honestly don't find it to be nearly as hazardous as many would have you think. I do not disagree with txinvestigator that "potentially" the things he said.. might apply.

I don't know your shooting stance (Isosceles or Weaver or other), but I'll submit this: The position you begin your draw from has much more to do with having your draw stalled "jammed up" than where your pistol resides.

While your stance prior to and beginning your draw CAN affect you getting jammed up, in no way is it more influential than where you carry. I have actually been in force on force training with several modes of carry including strong side, cross-draw and shoulder holster.

No disrespect meant, but I am speaking from experience. When I do PPO work and I am driving I carry in a shoulder holster. I do that so I can draw and engage while seated and belted. However, I also carry strong side on the hip when I carry in a shoulder holster as that is a better position from which to engage up close than shoulder holster draw.

If you are facing me (squared up) at arms length, I will stall your draw everytime regardless of where you have it. Only, if you parry off my attack with your weak hand, or blade your body to me, will I fail. I'm pretty sure Sensei will confirm this.

Agreed. From strong side carry I simply have to step back with my strong side foot and twist; I can even fire from directly over the holster from this mode.

In cross draw you must move much farther back to be able to present the weapon, and it takes longer and the arms must be extended out farther from the body.

Same holds true for sweeping everyone. Blade your body (if possible), keep the weapon vertical (muzzle down just like from strongside), and when it crosses your midsection, make your support hand transition and no one gets swept. All it amounts to is a proper draw!

Exactly correct. It is important for the cross-draw shooter to practice this technique. ;)

Slower than strongside to draw from? Without more information I won't comment. I will say this however, IF you are bladed...then most cross draw rigs provide a shorter (arc of draw) than strongside, and many people actually find them faster.

People who practice extensively might draw faster from this position, but cross-draw is generally slower and requires more motion. (cross draw also presents the butt of the weapon in a "take me" look, but I readily admit that for concealed carry it is not really an issue, but it still looks wrong to me :) )

I know some of the tactical schools look down on this mode of carry, but give it a try.

Only because experience shows what I have pointed out. However, if it is what works for a person over other methods, then thats enough for me.

Again, I am not purposely being argumentative and TI's advice is sound. Anytime you switch modes of carry you need to re-evaluate it suitability.

Agreed

[flintknapper]

txin,


Thanks for your input.

Judging from your response, I am tempted to suggest that the "cross-draw" techniques you have been shown were slanted to show them in an unfavorable light. I strongly disagree with a few points you have made. I would like very much to meet you some time and exchange ideas and techniques.

My younger brother lives in Corsicana (about 45 minutes south of Dallas). I visit him several times a year. Perhaps we could arrange to meet somewhere one afternoon and look at different tactics. A good friend of mine has a dojo in Rockwall...and he would probably let us meet up there. In fact, he might even structure a class around it one night. Upper level students are taught about a dozen "take away" and "retention" techniques.

I routinely do this with "soft air" guns, and some of the "presentations" we see, just don't pan out the way people thought they would. The most common offense I run across is wasted motion. The worst that can happen is that we'll both learn something. I think you'll find that I have a very teachable spirit, I try very hard never to stop learning. PM me if you are interested.

Flint.

[KBCraig]

Just to toss out another data point, I know of at least one case where crossdraw carry saved lives (well, it saved the good guys' lives, at least).

More on that in a moment...

I realize that crossdraw is not the best choice, generally speaking, and most of the arguments against it have merit. But remember, we're talking conealed carry, where bringing your handgun into the equation should be a complete surprise. A defensive gun use should never be a fastdraw competition.

Okay, back to my example, which was part of an official class at work, on armed escort procedures. I might have forgotten a couple of details, but I'll do my best.

A pair of Deputy U.S. Marshals had to take a prisoner for medical treatment. Unknown to them, they were walking into a setup. As soon as they got the prisoner out of the car, two accomplices jumped out from behind a car, guns drawn. While BG-1 held a gun on them from the front, BG-2 ran behind DUSM-1 and started grabbing underneath his jacket for the gun on his strong side.

Except it wasn't there. DUSM-1 was carrying crossdraw that day. When BG-1 glanced sideways at a distraction, DUSM-1 drew his .357 revolver, double-tapped BG-1, simultaneously swept BG-2's hands off his back as he began turning, fired one shot blind over his left shoulder while turning, squared away after turning, and fired again.

Four shots, four hits, two dead BGs. One of them was the prisoner's girlfriend.

DUSM-1 was a "gun guy", and took it seriously. He practiced carrying in different holsters/locations, and practiced lots of draw and dry-fire with each combination.

I don't recall DUSM-2's exact actions, other than being part of the distraction that made BG-1 look away for a split second. There were allegations that the distracting behavior amounted to a screaming hissy, but I don't know that to be fact.

Kevin

[quidni]

Gentlemen, I hadn't expected to stir up a debate like this - but I'm glad that I did!

I don't expect that this will be the ultimate holster for this pistol. I plan to keep looking, and when I find something that works better for me, I'll change. But in the meantime, I'm feeling more comfortable with this rig the longer I wear it. I'm definitely more comfortable with this than I am with keeping the CZ in my purse!

Thank you for everyone's input!

[txinvestigator]

txin,


Thanks for your input.

Judging from your response, I am tempted to suggest that the "cross-draw" techniques you have been shown were slanted to show them in an unfavorable light. I strongly disagree with a few points you have made. I would like very much to meet you some time and exchange ideas and techniques.

My younger brother lives in Corsicana (about 45 minutes south of Dallas). I visit him several times a year. Perhaps we could arrange to meet somewhere one afternoon and look at different tactics. A good friend of mine has a dojo in Rockwall...and he would probably let us meet up there. In fact, he might even structure a class around it one night. Upper level students are taught about a dozen "take away" and "retention" techniques.

I routinely do this with "soft air" guns, and some of the "presentations" we see, just don't pan out the way people thought they would. The most common offense I run across is wasted motion. The worst that can happen is that we'll both learn something. I think you'll find that I have a very teachable spirit, I try very hard never to stop learning. PM me if you are interested.

Flint.

It actually sounds like fun. I am the training director at an in indoor range in Dallas. We have classrooms and a 2,000 square foot gym too.

I always look for opportunities to train. I try to make 4 firearms schools a year, but FREE education......I'm in!

[lrb111]

Easier to show than to explain, I think...

wow! Essentially, on your physique you have made a really large gun disappear. It's also sitting as if it were in a shoulder rig.
Sometimes you just gotta keep trying things til you find the magic. neat..