51%
Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton
51%
I bowl in Webster at Alpha Bowl (Bay Area between Highway 3 and I-45).
I have bowled there for 6 years now, and never really paid attn to the signage, and now that I am waiting (patiently) for my CHL, I am starting to look at all the windows on the entrances on every business that i go into, not only to see if I can carry there later, but to get used to looking and seeing any various signage.
This bowling center has a bar inside it, that has an exterior entrance and 2 internal entrances, with the 51% sign certainly at one of the internal entrances, not at the other, and I haven't looked at the exterior entrance.
Today as I am entering the main doors to the bowling center (not the bar), I noticed a 51% sign on the top right of the window. I start thinking - are they really saying that this bowling center makes 51% of its gross from alcohol sales? .. Remember this is a bowling center....not a bar... it has a bar inside, but its main job is bowling... (yes, this is how I thought about it... trying to make sense of it).
Anyway, I do not know if there is anyway to get the sales figures from a private company, and to be honest, I don't care to audit them.
So I am sitting there thinking, is this 51% sign really enforceable on the main entrance to the bowling center, when the bar has it on (at least) 1 door from the interior, and to me, that shows that the bar area, segregated would the be the entity that is enforced by the 51%, as the bar, certainly, gets at least 51% from alcohol.
Then as I look at the 2 other exterior entrances to the main bowling center, they do not have the 51% signs on those doors anywhere.
So my questions are this:
#1 - is the 51% enforceable in the entire center, or just the segregated bar area?
#2 - If the answer to #1 is yes, then would the fact that only 1 entrance has the sign and the other 2 entrances do not, void #1?
#2a - does each entrance have to be clearly marked or does just 1 sign meet the necessary requirements of the 51%? (assuming that the entire center actually makes 51% on alcohol, remember, this is a bowling center.
I have bowled there for 6 years now, and never really paid attn to the signage, and now that I am waiting (patiently) for my CHL, I am starting to look at all the windows on the entrances on every business that i go into, not only to see if I can carry there later, but to get used to looking and seeing any various signage.
This bowling center has a bar inside it, that has an exterior entrance and 2 internal entrances, with the 51% sign certainly at one of the internal entrances, not at the other, and I haven't looked at the exterior entrance.
Today as I am entering the main doors to the bowling center (not the bar), I noticed a 51% sign on the top right of the window. I start thinking - are they really saying that this bowling center makes 51% of its gross from alcohol sales? .. Remember this is a bowling center....not a bar... it has a bar inside, but its main job is bowling... (yes, this is how I thought about it... trying to make sense of it).
Anyway, I do not know if there is anyway to get the sales figures from a private company, and to be honest, I don't care to audit them.
So I am sitting there thinking, is this 51% sign really enforceable on the main entrance to the bowling center, when the bar has it on (at least) 1 door from the interior, and to me, that shows that the bar area, segregated would the be the entity that is enforced by the 51%, as the bar, certainly, gets at least 51% from alcohol.
Then as I look at the 2 other exterior entrances to the main bowling center, they do not have the 51% signs on those doors anywhere.
So my questions are this:
#1 - is the 51% enforceable in the entire center, or just the segregated bar area?
#2 - If the answer to #1 is yes, then would the fact that only 1 entrance has the sign and the other 2 entrances do not, void #1?
#2a - does each entrance have to be clearly marked or does just 1 sign meet the necessary requirements of the 51%? (assuming that the entire center actually makes 51% on alcohol, remember, this is a bowling center.
League City, TX
Yankee born, but got to Texas as fast as I could! NRA / PSC / IANAL
Yankee born, but got to Texas as fast as I could! NRA / PSC / IANAL
Re: 51%
what will their liquor license tell me?
The 51% on the sign is in Red. And I agree that the bar area should be listed as such, but the entire facility? and only marked on 1 entrance out of 3?
The 51% on the sign is in Red. And I agree that the bar area should be listed as such, but the entire facility? and only marked on 1 entrance out of 3?
League City, TX
Yankee born, but got to Texas as fast as I could! NRA / PSC / IANAL
Yankee born, but got to Texas as fast as I could! NRA / PSC / IANAL
Re: 51%
Read this thread.
http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32237" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It contains a photo of a license. In this case, it clearly states "SIGN=RED". Or, if the business is not 51%, it would state "SIGN=BLUE"
http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32237" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It contains a photo of a license. In this case, it clearly states "SIGN=RED". Or, if the business is not 51%, it would state "SIGN=BLUE"
Mike
AF5MS
TSRA Life Member
NRA Benefactor Member
AF5MS
TSRA Life Member
NRA Benefactor Member
Re: 51%
Thanks.
I am curious though, that would the bowling center have this for the entire business, or would the bar have a separate license from the bowling center?
I am curious though, that would the bowling center have this for the entire business, or would the bar have a separate license from the bowling center?
League City, TX
Yankee born, but got to Texas as fast as I could! NRA / PSC / IANAL
Yankee born, but got to Texas as fast as I could! NRA / PSC / IANAL
- jimlongley
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6134
- Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:31 pm
- Location: Allen, TX
Re: 51%
This is one of those areas of TX CHL law that needs to be fixed. To us it is intuitively obvious that the entire bowling center could not possibly derive 51% of its income from alcohol sales, but the bar, which is separately licensed and may very well be proper to post. Then the bowling center puts the signs all over the outside entrances. We have seen the same from football stadia and other large venues, and I have no doubt that if you are caught carrying there you will take the ride.
It seems that once the owners get the 51% license then they can post the whole property, even if the bar area is a relatively small venue within, because people can carry their beverages anywhere within the property.
If the logic that allows a bowling center or football stadium to post the entire building 51% is extended, then the State Fair could possibly post the entire property.
I think this part of the law needs to be revisited and narrowed.
It seems that once the owners get the 51% license then they can post the whole property, even if the bar area is a relatively small venue within, because people can carry their beverages anywhere within the property.
If the logic that allows a bowling center or football stadium to post the entire building 51% is extended, then the State Fair could possibly post the entire property.
I think this part of the law needs to be revisited and narrowed.
Real gun control, carrying 24/7/365
Re: 51%
Alpha Lanes at 318 Bay Area in Webster has a Food and Beverage License (See below), so there is no way they are 51%. You can check licenses to see if they have an FB at http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInqui ... sults.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Contact TABC and they will contact the owner to tell them they have the sign improperly posted. If you feel comfortable with talking to the manager at the lanes, you might be able to show them the sign=blue on the license and get them to remove the 51% sign.
---------------------------------------
License #: MB687132
Trade Name: AMF ALPHA LANES
Owner: 300 INC.
Location Address: 318 W BAY AREA BOULEVARD
WEBSTER , TX 775984116
Mailing Address: 3301 NORTHLAND DR STE 213
AUSTIN , TX 787314939
County: HARRIS Orig. Issue Date: 3/18/2008
Status: Current Exp. Date: 3/17/2011
Wine Percent:
Location Phone No.: 2813381272
Subordinates: FB,LB,PE
Related To:
Contact TABC and they will contact the owner to tell them they have the sign improperly posted. If you feel comfortable with talking to the manager at the lanes, you might be able to show them the sign=blue on the license and get them to remove the 51% sign.
---------------------------------------
License #: MB687132
Trade Name: AMF ALPHA LANES
Owner: 300 INC.
Location Address: 318 W BAY AREA BOULEVARD
WEBSTER , TX 775984116
Mailing Address: 3301 NORTHLAND DR STE 213
AUSTIN , TX 787314939
County: HARRIS Orig. Issue Date: 3/18/2008
Status: Current Exp. Date: 3/17/2011
Wine Percent:
Location Phone No.: 2813381272
Subordinates: FB,LB,PE
Related To:
Keith
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member
Psalm 82:3-4
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member
Psalm 82:3-4
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- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:27 pm
- Location: Luling, TX
Re: 51%
I am glad to see that this case was a mistake, but I have to second what Jim said about revisiting this part of the law. The loophole is in the way TABC licenses bars when there are multiple businesses at a single location.
Many entertainment businesses, such as bowling alleys, ice skating rinks, and stadiums (stadia?) contract out the operations of businesses that are not the primary focus. So, the bowling alley contracts out the bar as one example. The contract specifies that the bar owner must sell drinks for someone to take anywhere in the alley. TABC allows one licensee (normally) per address and lets the licensee defines the premises. If no one says otherwise, the license covers everything at that business address. So, the bar owner gets his license and it covers the whole bowling alley, thus allowing the bowlers to take their beers (or whatever) back to the lanes with them.
But, the bar owner applies for a license and truthfully tells TABC that he will make 75% of his revenue from the sale of alcoholic beverages. Remember, he is a separate business and all of his income comes from the bar. He gets none of the bowling income or pro shop business, etc. So TABC issues him a 51% license and since he did not rule out the parts where bowlers will take their beer, all of a sudden the whole premise is a 51% location. This is absurd to the real world where we know the bowling alley cannot possibly make 51% from alcohol (well, might but highly unlikely).
So, this is one of those times that the CHL's must address laws outside the CHL law to protect themselves. We must start digging into the Alcoholic Beverage Code.
As I see it, we have three possible solutions:
1. Allow carry anywhere that is not posted with a 30.06 sign, either with a license or without and concealed or not. Somehow, much as I like this, I don't see it coming about.
2. Do away with the 51% restriction. Again, this law makes no sense to me, but I don't see it as politically possible right now.
3. Redefine how to calculate premises or 51% in the AB Code. This could be done by adding a line saying that in the case of multiple businesses at the same location, the license only covers the space rented by the licensee (but this would also cut off taking beer outside the bar area to the lanes) OR in the case of multiple businesses at the same location, the 51% is applied only if the bar is the primary business. If all of the other businesses combined would reasonably be expected to gross more than the bar function, the premises cannot be defined as a 51% location. the problem here is defining the reasonable income or getting the estimated gross sales of the other businesses.
I think option three might be possible if we address it carefully. Use the previously posted example of the ice skating rink instead of the bowling alley to avoid the "sporting events" questions (some think the competition from sporting events increase the chance of fights).
I am sure Alice at Charles know more about the political situation and which way to address this. The question for them is if it is a serious enough issue to gamble political capital on. In other words, how big a problem in the state is this? is it one or two places that we have identified or is it most of the joint venture places like bowling alleys.
Many entertainment businesses, such as bowling alleys, ice skating rinks, and stadiums (stadia?) contract out the operations of businesses that are not the primary focus. So, the bowling alley contracts out the bar as one example. The contract specifies that the bar owner must sell drinks for someone to take anywhere in the alley. TABC allows one licensee (normally) per address and lets the licensee defines the premises. If no one says otherwise, the license covers everything at that business address. So, the bar owner gets his license and it covers the whole bowling alley, thus allowing the bowlers to take their beers (or whatever) back to the lanes with them.
But, the bar owner applies for a license and truthfully tells TABC that he will make 75% of his revenue from the sale of alcoholic beverages. Remember, he is a separate business and all of his income comes from the bar. He gets none of the bowling income or pro shop business, etc. So TABC issues him a 51% license and since he did not rule out the parts where bowlers will take their beer, all of a sudden the whole premise is a 51% location. This is absurd to the real world where we know the bowling alley cannot possibly make 51% from alcohol (well, might but highly unlikely).
So, this is one of those times that the CHL's must address laws outside the CHL law to protect themselves. We must start digging into the Alcoholic Beverage Code.
As I see it, we have three possible solutions:
1. Allow carry anywhere that is not posted with a 30.06 sign, either with a license or without and concealed or not. Somehow, much as I like this, I don't see it coming about.
2. Do away with the 51% restriction. Again, this law makes no sense to me, but I don't see it as politically possible right now.
3. Redefine how to calculate premises or 51% in the AB Code. This could be done by adding a line saying that in the case of multiple businesses at the same location, the license only covers the space rented by the licensee (but this would also cut off taking beer outside the bar area to the lanes) OR in the case of multiple businesses at the same location, the 51% is applied only if the bar is the primary business. If all of the other businesses combined would reasonably be expected to gross more than the bar function, the premises cannot be defined as a 51% location. the problem here is defining the reasonable income or getting the estimated gross sales of the other businesses.
I think option three might be possible if we address it carefully. Use the previously posted example of the ice skating rink instead of the bowling alley to avoid the "sporting events" questions (some think the competition from sporting events increase the chance of fights).
I am sure Alice at Charles know more about the political situation and which way to address this. The question for them is if it is a serious enough issue to gamble political capital on. In other words, how big a problem in the state is this? is it one or two places that we have identified or is it most of the joint venture places like bowling alleys.
Steve Rothstein
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Re: 51%
That's interesting. I had been told by a TABC official a couple of years ago that the 51% assessment was based on gross receipts on food vs. alcohol sales, and does not include non-food sales. If you read TITLE 4. REGULATORY AND PENAL PROVISIONS, CHAPTER 101. GENERAL CRIMINAL PROVISIONS, it simply says "gross receipts," with no distinction or definition. It looks as though he was wrong. Can someone clarify?

http://www.doubleactionchl.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Houston, Texas
"Excuses are for tombstones. Get back in the fight."
--Me
Re: 51%
Regardless, the entire facility shouldn't benposted I wouldn't think, just the bar.XtremeDuty.45 wrote:ask to see their liquor license.
Sign = RED its 51%
Sign = BLUE you're good to go
I think a polite call to TABC might be in order to see what they have the 51% sign assigned to. Surely it's just the bar.
"I don't like repeat offenders, I like DEAD offenders!" -- Ted Nugent
"Not everyone can be born with common sense, some are born liberals." -- M218
"Not everyone can be born with common sense, some are born liberals." -- M218
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Re: 51%
TABC makes the decision based on all sales. In the application for the license it asks for alcohol, food, and all other sales. they break it down that way so they can determine 51% for alcohol or 51% for food for the food and beverage certificate.DoubleActionCHL wrote:That's interesting. I had been told by a TABC official a couple of years ago that the 51% assessment was based on gross receipts on food vs. alcohol sales, and does not include non-food sales. If you read TITLE 4. REGULATORY AND PENAL PROVISIONS, CHAPTER 101. GENERAL CRIMINAL PROVISIONS, it simply says "gross receipts," with no distinction or definition. It looks as though he was wrong. Can someone clarify?
Steve Rothstein
Re: 51%
Maybe someone should find the manager and remind him of laws prohibiting minors in bars. I'm sure not every bowler is of age for legal purpose. If that doesn't work advise him you're duty bound to call TABC since there are probably several minors unaccompanied by adults bowling in the "bar" at any given time.MedicMan218 wrote:Regardless, the entire facility shouldn't benposted I wouldn't think, just the bar.XtremeDuty.45 wrote:ask to see their liquor license.
Sign = RED its 51%
Sign = BLUE you're good to go
I think a polite call to TABC might be in order to see what they have the 51% sign assigned to. Surely it's just the bar.
Last edited by puma guy on Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KAHR PM40/Hoffner IWB and S&W Mod 60/ Galco IWB
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My Faith, My Gun and My Constitution: I cling to all three!
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Re: 51%
Thanks. I was having lunch with an LEO friend of mine and his TABC buddy a couple of years ago. The question came up about Hard Rock Cafe in downtown Houston being 51%. When I commented that I didn't see how they could be 51% with all the food and merchandise they sell, he was quick to tell me that the merchandise was not factored in; only food.srothstein wrote:TABC makes the decision based on all sales. In the application for the license it asks for alcohol, food, and all other sales. they break it down that way so they can determine 51% for alcohol or 51% for food for the food and beverage certificate.DoubleActionCHL wrote:That's interesting. I had been told by a TABC official a couple of years ago that the 51% assessment was based on gross receipts on food vs. alcohol sales, and does not include non-food sales. If you read TITLE 4. REGULATORY AND PENAL PROVISIONS, CHAPTER 101. GENERAL CRIMINAL PROVISIONS, it simply says "gross receipts," with no distinction or definition. It looks as though he was wrong. Can someone clarify?

http://www.doubleactionchl.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Houston, Texas
"Excuses are for tombstones. Get back in the fight."
--Me