How to Define a School?

[Vol Texan]

I'm new to this forum, so I apologize if (a) I'm posting in the wrong place, or (b) if it has already been answered elsewhere.

I wonder if my daughter's swim class at the Houston Swim Club (http://www.houstonswimclub.com/katy.html) is covered by PC §46.03?

My assumption is that this is a 'club' and not a 'school', but they do teach classes there. I welcome any comments from those of you with more experience.

• PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
  
  (1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

[C-dub]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm on my phone right now, so I copy the code, that does does not qualify as a school. You may carry there and if it is owned by the city any 30.06 sign they did post would be unenforceable.

[srothstein]

The problem we have is that the term school is not ever defined in the Penal Code. The Code Construction Act says that in a case like that, you are supposed to use the common definition of the word. In this case, I don't think anyone would say the swim club is a school just because they teach some classes there.

But the caution is that someone MIGHT try to expand the definition and make the case. This can only happen if someone finds that you are carrying. It is most likely to happen if you are involved in something that is not a justified shooting. I believe this is one of those cases where the best advice I can give you is that concealed means concealed. Go ahead and carry, but don't let anyone know you are doing so just to protect yourself from some panic reaction.

[tacticool]

I believe this is one of those cases where the best advice I can give you is that concealed means concealed.

[SewTexas]

But the caution is that someone MIGHT try to expand the definition and make the case. This can only happen if someone finds that you are carrying. It is most likely to happen if you are involved in something that is not a justified shooting. I believe this is one of those cases where the best advice I can give you is that concealed means concealed. Go ahead and carry, but don't let anyone know you are doing so just to protect yourself from some panic reaction.

I don't see how that would work? If someone tried that, then one of those 'you paint pottery' places would be a 'school'......every church, since they often hold first aid classes classes.....yarn, fabric, hobby, shops hold tons of classes.....motorcycle shops hold classes. You see where something like this could go? I just don't see it happening...the outcry from the gun lobby, the homeschool lobby, the "keep your mits off my stuff" lobby would slap it down in a heart beat.

let's keep the definition of a school as a "government institution" where "so called learn'n takes place" and keep it concealed at all other locations

[tacticool]

let's keep the definition of a school as a "government institution" where "so called learn'n takes place" and keep it concealed at all other locations

Let's repeal the bad law instead. There's no rational reason for that law, only ignorance and prejudice.

[Oldgringo]

let's keep the definition of a school as a "government institution" where "so called learn'n takes place" and keep it concealed at all other locations

Let's repeal the bad law instead. There's no rational reason for that law, only ignorance and prejudice.

That sounds like a, "sleeping dog best let lie". IOW, be careful what you ask for, you may get it.

[Vol Texan]

let's keep the definition of a school as a "government institution" where "so called learn'n takes place" and keep it concealed at all other locations

While that sounds like a good definition, my CHL instructor told me that even my daughter's Montessori school (NOT a government school, but they do teach through 6th grade) counts as a school, so I can't carry there, unless I have written permission from the administration. The principal has a CHL, but she said that it would be impossible to get permission from their corporate office.

In this case, I don't think anyone would say the swim club is a school just because they teach some classes there.

I honestly think you're right in this instance, but I know the lawyers would have a field day with this one. It's not that they 'teach some classes there - in reality, that's ALL they do is teach swimming classes, and from my few visits, it appears that 100% of the students are under the age of 10.

Concealed does mean concealed, and that's what I've been doing so far (and will continue to do in the future). I just thought I'd open this thread to see if there are any differing opinions. Thanks to everyone for affirming my original position.

[Keith B]

As already stated, school is not really defined in the statutes for this. However, I believe the intention when the statute was written was a school as we normally know them. My personal non-legal view has always been if they are accredited by the Texas Education Agency as a public or the Texas Private School Accreditation Commissionas a private school, then they are off-limits. As for a Montessori school IS off limits as they are accredited by the TPSAC. Karate, dance, gymnastics, and other 'schools' like this are NOT off limits just because they have the name.

[C-dub]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm on my phone right now, so I copy the code, that does does not qualify as a school. You may carry there and if it is owned by the city any 30.06 sign they did post would be unenforceable.

That was supposed to be "can't copy the code", but I guess there isn't anything to copy or one of those other gentlemen would have done it.

IMHO, schools, for these purposes, are places that teach grades K-12 and then any of you colleges or universities. This would not include places like truck driving school or refrigerator repair school.

[katmandu]

What about places like Art Institute, ITT, barber / beauty schools, medical / dental assisting schools, and other trade schools (assuming they're not posted)?

They're private/corporate, yet some of them are probably accredited by TEA / TPSAC.

It seems like it would really be pushing it to carry in those places, even if they're not accredited.

[SewTexas]

just remember this.....

public school, public university -- no gun

private school -- must be posted or you can carry

other places that offer classes -- must be posted or you can carry

[Crossfire]

just remember this.....

public school, public university -- no gun

private school -- must be posted or you can carry

other places that offer classes -- must be posted or you can carry

Private schools are also off limits:

PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

[SewTexas]

yeh, yeh....I forget...I'm sorry...but that should still only apply to those private schools that are "accredited" or "approved" or whatevered by the TPSAC

so still going back to the swim school, gyms even homeschool co-ops and such, you're good unless they're posted.

[Jumping Frog]

let's keep the definition of a school as a "government institution" where "so called learn'n takes place" and keep it concealed at all other locations

Let's repeal the bad law instead. There's no rational reason for that law, only ignorance and prejudice.

Why repeal it if you can end-run it? Less opposition to an end-run. Similar to the way carrying in churches was never repealed, but requiring effective notice under 30.06 was added later (which effectively makes churches no different than any other private property).

Moving CHL's from PC § 46.15(b) to (a) has the side effect of making it legal for a CHL to carry anywhere that a LEO can carry, including schools and college campuses.