Bankruptcy Court in an office building?

[goofygrin]

Went to visit a client today and in the meeting they mentioned that there was a court on another floor of the building.

No signage outside of the standard office building directory and a "No weapons allowed" in 1/2" letters on the door.

I'm guessing this is a no carry zone. Intent of the law might mean the floor, but from my reading it's likely the entire building and the parking lot if someone got a bug up their ass, right?

[smoothoperator]

Don't carry in the courtroom or the judges's chambers.

[rtschl]

Bankruptcy is Federal, so I would be concerned it was in a "Federal Building" which is prohibited whether a court is there or not.

Ron

[C-dub]

Hold on. The entire building is off limits as defined by "premises."


PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transporta-tion vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

(2) on the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early voting is in progress;

(3) on the premises of any government court or offices utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the court;

(f) It is not a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor possessed a handgun and was licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

[apostate]

If premises always meant the whole building, the definition wouldn't say "a portion of a building."

A good point is made about Federal facilities. It's something to consider, especially if his client is a government agency.

[goofygrin]

My client is not a federal agency. I guess there's a court renting space in the same building.

[srothstein]

This is one of those gray areas where the interpretation puts a CHL at risk. The law defines premises as a building or portion of a building. It never gives you any clue when to choose which half of the definition. I tend to interpret laws to the best benefit of myself when I see gray areas, so I would normally choose the portion of the building. But a DA who feels the same way about interpretations may decide to use the whole building in a case like this.

Consider the court in the middle of a strip mall. I am pretty sure that a case like that would be just the portion. A courthouse with no offices other than the court would almost definitely make the whole building off limits. A case like a court on one floor could go either way.

[C-dub]

If premises always meant the whole building, the definition wouldn't say "a portion of a building."

A good point is made about Federal facilities. It's something to consider, especially if his client is a government agency.

Well, as Steve has said it's a grey area, but I look at the whole building being off limits for courts and portions of the building being off limits for government meetings. When it's a school the whole building is off limits whether the whole building is used as a school or not.

[speedsix]

...second that opinion...

[Keith B]

If premises always meant the whole building, the definition wouldn't say "a portion of a building."

A good point is made about Federal facilities. It's something to consider, especially if his client is a government agency.

Well, as Steve has said it's a grey area, but I look at the whole building being off limits for courts and portions of the building being off limits for government meetings. When it's a school the whole building is off limits whether the whole building is used as a school or not.

I don't agree. Let's assume a church building has a certified school in it. If there is a clear definition of where the school and church are separate in the building, then I would consider that the church portion was OK to carry since it was not used by the school and vice versa. However, as Steve said, a DA may have a different interpretation.

My question to myself on any decision to carry or not in an gray area is: 'If I carry in here and get caught, do I have a very good explanation for my defense that would make sense to a Judge or Jury on why I felt it was legal to carry in in this area?' If the answer is a strong yes, then I carry. If not, then I err on the side of caution and don't.

[jimlongley]

It might pay to remember that such things as property tax appeals and bankruptcies are held in front of "administrative law judges" and may not be in a formal courtroom setting. I have seen such hearings conducted in the meeting room of a local motel, in a meeting room at the "Plano Centre" and even in the back office of a title company, the court is wherever the "judge" sets up, which makes the grey area even greyer (18% gray??? )

[Keith B]

It might pay to remember that such things as property tax appeals and bankruptcies are held in front of "administrative law judges" and may not be in a formal courtroom setting. I have seen such hearings conducted in the meeting room of a local motel, in a meeting room at the "Plano Centre" and even in the back office of a title company, the court is wherever the "judge" sets up, which makes the grey area even greyer (18% gray??? )

I think the percentage may be higher, more like 51%. Maybe they can be required to post a sign?

[n5wd]

(18% gray??? )

Ah! A photographer?

[speedsix]

...PC46.03(a)(3) says "on the premises of any government court or offices utilized by the court,..." notice the "or"...so it is illegal to carry in EITHER the building where a government court is OR the building where offices utilized by the court is...
...the meaning of premises here is from 45.035, which also states building OR portion of a building...
...if EITHER of the two options "any government court" or "offices utilized by the court" happen on those premises...that building is off limits...

[C-dub]

If premises always meant the whole building, the definition wouldn't say "a portion of a building."

A good point is made about Federal facilities. It's something to consider, especially if his client is a government agency.

Well, as Steve has said it's a grey area, but I look at the whole building being off limits for courts and portions of the building being off limits for government meetings. When it's a school the whole building is off limits whether the whole building is used as a school or not.

I don't agree. Let's assume a church building has a certified school in it. If there is a clear definition of where the school and church are separate in the building, then I would consider that the church portion was OK to carry since it was not used by the school and vice versa. However, as Steve said, a DA may have a different interpretation.

My question to myself on any decision to carry or not in an gray area is: 'If I carry in here and get caught, do I have a very good explanation for my defense that would make sense to a Judge or Jury on why I felt it was legal to carry in in this area?' If the answer is a strong yes, then I carry. If not, then I err on the side of caution and don't.

The green part I agree with and mostly follow for improperly posted places.

The blue part is the fuzzy area. For my daughter's school, the church used to be in the school, but are now two separate buildings. Whew! I am curious, based on your position on this issue, what your opinion is on a place like Parkland Hospital and UTSW. I haven't needed to go to Parkland, but don't think I would carry in there due to hassle it would create if discovered. I do think that Parkland, being a county hospital, is unable to prohibit a CHL from carrying in side, but the hospital is connected to the school.