71 year old Marine thwarts robbery

[Kythas]

Score one for the good guys.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/20 ... ry_070702/

Former Marine thwarts Subway robbery, kills 1

By Michael Hoffman - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday Jul 5, 2007 6:32:23 EDT

A 71-year-old former “Marine One” helicopter pilot broke up an armed robbery at a Plantation, Fla., Subway restaurant last week, killing one alleged robber and hospitalizing another.

While John Lovell was finishing up his sandwich around 11:15 p.m. last Wednesday, two masked men armed with guns barged into the restaurant, according to a statement from the Plantation police. After taking money from the register, the two men turned to Lovell and demanded his wallet, police said.

As the two tried to force Lovell into the ladies’ room where he thought he would be killed, the former Marine reached behind his back to grab his .45-caliber handgun, which he fired seven times at the two men, according to the police statement.

Donicio Arrendell, 22, of North Lauderdale, was fatally shot in the head and chest. Frederick Gadson, 21, of Fort Lauderdale, ran from the store after he was shot in the chest, according to the police statement. A police canine unit found him hiding next to a nearby bank. He was sent to Broward General Hospital and was listed in stable condition.

“It’s tragic and I feel sorry for them,” said Lovell’s attorney and longtime friend Wesley White. Lovell did not return calls to his home Monday afternoon. “He did it to protect himself and the guy behind the Subway counter.”

Police will not charge Lovell. He owned a concealed weapons permit to carry the gun he used that night, White said.

“Lovell doesn’t want to talk about the incident right now because he is afraid the family members of the two men will come after him,” he said.

Gadson was charged with felony murder and armed robbery. According to Florida law, a person charged with a felony, such as armed robbery, resulting in death can also be charged with murder.

Lovell served with Marine Helicopter Squadron 1 — which transports the president, vice president and cabinet members — while John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson were in office, White said. After getting out of the Marine Corps as a major, Lovell flew with Pan-America and Delta, he said.

“Based on his Marine Corps training he was ready for that night,” White said.

An official at the squadron said he could not confirm whether Lovell was a pilot there, since they do not track former pilots.

[joe817]

Thanks for posting Kythas. Good article.

It doesn't surprise me at all, with the issuance's of CHL's on the rise all over the U.S., that we see more and more articles like this.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Kudos to this Marine for being the man with a plan.

One cautionary lesson we may learn from this is that he seems
to have been carrying "small of back", which equates to a difficult
draw while under attack.

I was rather surprised that one of the guys took a .45 to the chest,
but did not die. Perhaps it was a glancing shot without a straight-on
angle.

[ELB]

This is an oldie but goodie, been covered before here. Some accounts note that Mr. Lovell actually did give up his wallet first -- he dropped it on the floor -- but at least one of the robbers tried to push him into the restroom. That's when he decided a robbery was about to become a murder, and opened fire.

[Excaliber]

Kudos to this Marine for being the man with a plan.

One cautionary lesson we may learn from this is that he seems
to have been carrying "small of back", which equates to a difficult
draw while under attack.

I was rather surprised that one of the guys took a .45 to the chest,
but did not die. Perhaps it was a glancing shot without a straight-on
angle.

This is not surprising at all. Don't believe everything you read in the magic bullet ads. Handgun bullets in any caliber are not reliable fight stoppers, and strange things often happen when bullets enter bodies.

In one case I investigated, the shootee was hit straight on in the center of the left nipple with a .45SWC round at point blank range. There was no exit wound. When I found him, he was hurting but not in any serious medical distress. There was no exterior bleeding, and no sign of respiratory distress or significant internal bleeding. The medics brought him to the hospital while I checked out the crime scene.

I got to the ER about 30 minutes after he did, and the doc calmly handed me a plastic vial with the bullet with bits of fat tissue attached. I remarked on how quick he was with the surgery.

He said, "Surgery? What surgery? When I turned him over to look for an exit wound, I noticed a lump on his back. When I squeezed it, this is what popped out." I asked what he planned as a course of treatment. He said, "A band aid and a prescription for antibiotics. He'll be out of here in an hour. The through and through wound through the lung self sealed, and nothing else important got hit, so there's no need to open him up."

This may not be the result we expect or hope for in a defensive encounter, but things like this can and do happen - even with calibers that begin with a 4.

[USA1]

WOW ! , amazing story Excaliber ,
...........................................my nipple hurts just reading that .

[ELB]

I recall Stephen Camp, of "Camp's Corner" on this site, recounting that during his time as a police officer he saw a woman who was shot several times in the chest with a .45 and still ran a couple blocks to get away. She survived, as I remember the story.

I wouldn't sniff at a .45 were I on the wrong end of it, but I have long been convinced that he difference in effectiveness between handgun calibers is minimal. Note that the robber who was killed in this incident was the one who was shot several times (other accounts have said Mr. Lovell fired seven rounds). I tend to think more bullets are more effective than bigger bullets. No guarantees, but better odds.

[Liberty]

This is not surprising at all. Don't believe everything you read in the magic bullet ads. Handgun bullets in any caliber are not reliable fight stoppers, and strange things often happen when bullets enter bodies.

In one case I investigated, the shootee was hit straight on in the center of the left nipple with a .45SWC round at point blank range. There was no exit wound. When I found him, he was hurting but not in any serious medical distress. There was no exterior bleeding, and no sign of respiratory distress or significant internal bleeding. The medics brought him to the hospital while I checked out the crime scene.

I got to the ER about 30 minutes after he did, and the doc calmly handed me a plastic vial with the bullet with bits of fat tissue attached. I remarked on how quick he was with the surgery.

He said, "Surgery? What surgery? When I turned him over to look for an exit wound, I noticed a lump on his back. When I squeezed it, this is what popped out." I asked what he planned as a course of treatment. He said, "A band aid and a prescription for antibiotics. He'll be out of here in an hour. The through and through wound through the lung self sealed, and nothing else important got hit, so there's no need to open him up."

This may not be the result we expect or hope for in a defensive encounter, but things like this can and do happen - even with calibers that begin with a 4.

It isn't to difficult to believe that this exmarine wasn't just toting a gun he was familiar with, but ammo also. I believe there is a good chance that he was shooting FMJs and not good quality ammo. Old Marines can be a stubborn lot, and some may not join the latest fads and trends.

[dicion]

It isn't to difficult to believe that this exmarine wasn't just toting a gun he was familiar with, but ammo also. I believe there is a good chance that he was shooting FMJs and not good quality ammo. Old Marines can be a stubborn lot, and some may not join the latest fads and trends.

That sounds very much like what a FMJ round would do. Also, the self-sealing lung holes pretty much prove it was FMJ. JHP's don't make holes capable of self-sealing....

If it was a JHP Round, then it did not do it's job properly, which is to spread out and cause a very large wound channel.

[Excaliber]

It isn't to difficult to believe that this exmarine wasn't just toting a gun he was familiar with, but ammo also. I believe there is a good chance that he was shooting FMJs and not good quality ammo. Old Marines can be a stubborn lot, and some may not join the latest fads and trends.

That sounds very much like what a FMJ round would do. Also, the self-sealing lung holes pretty much prove it was FMJ. JHP's don't make holes capable of self-sealing....

If it was a JHP Round, then it did not do it's job properly, which is to spread out and cause a very large wound channel.

It's not possible to draw a valid conclusion about bullet type from a description of the wounded person's post shooting activity. Like game animals, people can continue to function for varying degrees of time after being severely wounded. In a California case, a female police officer was shot through the heart during an off duty robbery. She fought on, killed her assailant, and survived due to heroic medical efforts.

In the case involving the Marine, the posts stated one subject was shot in the torso and fled. I didn't see any description of the medical analysis of the resulting tissue damage. The self sealing lung holes were described in the case I posted from an incident in New York state. In that instance, the recovered round was an undeformed .45 lead semiwadcutter, with the full diameter sharp shoulder designed to cut neat, round holes in targets. In this case, it performed in a manner similar to a full metal jacket round or a JHP that didn't expand (which happens a lot).

This doesn't mean that people shot in the lung with a .45 semiwadcutter will always have their wounds self seal and will walk out of the hospital in an hour or so with a band aid and a prescription for antibiotics. The takeaway is there are no guarantees on the fight stopping effects of bullets, even when large ones are well placed during a fight.

I tend to think more bullets are more effective than bigger bullets. No guarantees, but better odds.

Well, yes - and no. Large numbers of rounds correlate better with long term lethality (it's a lot harder to patch up that many wound tracks in the trauma room) than it does with stopping fights quickly enough to prevent serious injury to the good guy. The issue here is that it takes time to deliver each round, and as long as the fight continues, your opponent has the same opportunity. This is not good.

Rapid advances in projectile design have blurred lines that used to be much clearer. These days, a single well placed high speed 9mm JHP round that does expand may stop a fight right away. The same can be said for a larger caliber.

One fact that influences my decisions is that projectiles only sometimes get bigger when they strike their targets, but they seldom get smaller. Since the only thing you can count on is that any given round will create a damage path equal to its diameter (at minimum), in the worst case nonexpansion scenario, the larger caliber round will create a larger minimumdamage path with a somewhat (not dramatically) better chance of causing rapid blood loss or vital tissue damage. If the smaller round penetrates sufficiently and expands well, the difference largely goes away and the smaller round may actually inflict more damage than the larger one in some circumstances.

The problem here is that expansion is an iffy proposition, so I make my caliber choice based on the worst case nonexpansion scenario. Other knowledgeable folks emphasize other aspects of the ballistic equation, and in many cases those choices work out well. There are no black and white answers to the caliber debates once you get above the .38 minimum.

The takeaway here is: whatever you decide to carry, don't be surprised if an attacker shows no visible reaction to being shot and continues fighting. Be prepared to do whatever it takes until the threat is ended, even when this involves a lot more effort and well placed rounds than it takes on TV

[casingpoint]

I am reminded of this recent incident in which an attorney attending an AA meeting shot and killed a robber with three rounds of .32 ACP from a Kel Tec pistol.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Excalibur:

Thanks for your contribution.

I'm not sure where I read it, but there was a LEO encounter with
a bad guy where the BG was hit an immense number of times with
.40 caliber from the officers and continued to fight on. It was almost
as if he was a "can't be killed" zombie from a horror movie.

The story I read and your recent entry should reinforce to all of us that
emptying our magazine or wheelgun into an attacker is a viable option
since the threat does not go away with Round #1 from our weapon.

Keep in mind for your legal defense later on that you did not fire your
weapon so many times in order to kill the BG, but to "stop the threat."

And make sure to call 911 right away and request an ambulance for the
perp.

[Excaliber]

I am reminded of this recent incident in which an attorney attending an AA meeting shot and killed a robber with three rounds of .32 ACP from a Kel Tec pistol.

And David killed Goliath with a slingshot. Great terminal projectile performance. I still choose not to carry one for personal defense.

If you put enough well placed little holes in an attacker, he will likely expire - eventually. That may not stop the fight in time to do you any good. In another case I investigated, a homeowner shot an intruder 14 times with his .22 rifle, emptying the magazine, then had to go hand to hand with the bad guy until blood loss finally caused the attacker to lose consciousness. The attacker later died and the homeowner survived, but with a substantially changed opinion of the effectiveness of .22 rifle bullets in defensive encounters.

I've seen a man shot between the eyes with a small caliber (.25 or .32) at point blank range. He responded by going to bed, sleeping for 6 hours, and calling for medical transport for a facial cut in the morning. It was discovered to be a bullet wound after the X-ray in the ER. Because the round only went into his brain a couple of inches and didn't hit anything he was using anyway, the docs decided to leave it in and sent him home with a bandaid and an Rx for antibiotics.

Although it's possible to have a lucky day with a small caliber gun, that wouldn't make it my choice unless there is some circumstance beyond personal convenience that prevents carrying something with a better track record - unless, of course, one enjoys the drama of discovering in the heat of a gunfight if it's his lucky day - or not.

[quote"surprise_i'm_armed"]I'm not sure where I read it, but there was a LEO encounter with
a bad guy where the BG was hit an immense number of times with
.40 caliber from the officers and continued to fight on. It was almost
as if he was a "can't be killed" zombie from a horror movie.[/quote]

Yup, and if you review the literature further you'll find cases of the same type involving multiple torso hits from .41 magnums, .44 magnums, and even 12 gauge slugs. The felon who killed and wounded multiple FBI agents in the infamous Miami shootout did so after receiving a nonsurvivable wound from a 9mm JHP to the chest. He continued to kill while spurting blood from a freely bleeding major arterial wound. This was the incident that prompted the FBI's major review of wound ballistics.

Involuntary incapacitation happens when there's enough blood loss to drop the oxygen supply to the brain to the point where consciousness can't be maintained, there is critical damage to the central nervous system, or there is sufficient damage to the skeletal support structure to prevent effective movement. Until one or more of those things happens, a person (or game animal) can keep doing what he was doing if he's determined to do so.

Voluntary incapacitation (a subject is shot and decides not to continue the fight, even though he physically could) can also end a threat and with it the justification to continue shooting.

The bottom line is that those who rely on one shot stops from magic bullets will be disappointed more often than not. The wise man plans his tactics accordingly.

[ELB]

All interesting, but comparing a primary defense .45 and to a .22 or even .32 backup gun is not what I was doing.
For one thing, really small handguns tend not to carry very many rounds.

In the range of reasonable self-defense calibers, .38-9mm - .40. 45 etc, I think the difference in wound track diameter is fairly small to insignificant. The difference between having one .45 hole or two 9mm holes in the torso is not insignificant, whether talking short term or long term effect. Given reasonable placement, the difference between having one .45 hole and seven or eight 9mm holes is very significant, as would be the case when Mr. Lovell nearly unloaded his .45 into the first BG, and had maybe one shot left for the other -- versus having 10 left if he were carrying a Glock 17 instead of a 1911.

It's not just the size of a single hole -- being able to inflict multiple holes not only increases the "blood out/air in" effect, but gives a person more chancesto put a hole in the correct place, on more than one assailant. THAT's the advantage that double stack 9mms have over singlestack .45s, so that's why I carry a Browning Hi Power instead of a 1911. Now you can get doublestack Para-ordnance and XD pistols -- but you do start running up against the upper edge of reasonable concealability.

[suthdj]

When I was in basic training my drill Sgt compared getting hit with a .45 to being hit with a baseball bat at 200mph, after reading that report by the FBI I believe he was way off. It pretty much stated everything Excaliber has been saying even gave an example simply the kick you feel is the same impact the BG will feel, it even gave comparisons to a 1lb & 10lb weight being dropped from a specific height as to what the force of impact would be. Then on the other hand you hear the stories from the ER's about the damage that bullets do. Now I don't know to many people that will stand still to get shot or shot at, that coupled with the mystery of bullet damage it seems more like a crap shoot.