Documented Mouse Gun Failures for CHLs

[terryg]

Or "kinetic Energy"

The kinetic energy of an object is the energy which it possesses due to its motion.[1] It is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes. The same amount of work is done by the body in decelerating from its current speed to a state of rest.

Momentum is the tendency of a moving object to continue moving at the same speed and in the same direction until it is influence by another force. Momentum is calculated by multiplying mass x velocity.

The form of energy that a bullet carries and can transfer partially or fully to a target when a bullet strikes is called "Kinetic Energy."

The formula for that is: Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared.

The correcter stands corrected - and has learned something. Thank you.

[The Annoyed Man]

For that matter, we can find stories of people shot with 9mm, 40mm, .45, etc that lived. Living after being hit with a "mousegun" does not prove it would have a different outcome with a larger caliber. I carry a Smith and Wesson Bodyguard .380 and do not feel underpowered. Someone asked "But if you KNEW you were going to be in a fight, would you carry it?" My response is "No, I'd bring a long gun." Clint Smith, Tom Gresham and others say that all handguns are underpowered period. That it's about tradeoff. And Clint carries a 1911.

Why is that? If your premise is true—that handgun caliber is irrelevant—than why does Clint Smith carry a 1911? It's not even a high capacity gun. Clint could carry anything he wanted to. He probably doesn't even have to pay full pop for the guns he carries. Given a choice between carrying a pistol in .45 ACP or a pistol in any other caliber including .380 (regardless of platform), he chose a .45. He could have chosen a 1911 platform pistol in any one of several calibers. I'm going to guess that Clint Smith chose the .45 based on a belief that it has more stopping power than a .380 or a 9mm, or a .40 S&W......regardless of his feelings about pistols versus long guns. Is he wrong?

[wgoforth]

For that matter, we can find stories of people shot with 9mm, 40mm, .45, etc that lived. Living after being hit with a "mousegun" does not prove it would have a different outcome with a larger caliber. I carry a Smith and Wesson Bodyguard .380 and do not feel underpowered. Someone asked "But if you KNEW you were going to be in a fight, would you carry it?" My response is "No, I'd bring a long gun." Clint Smith, Tom Gresham and others say that all handguns are underpowered period. That it's about tradeoff. And Clint carries a 1911.

Why is that? If your premise is true—that handgun caliber is irrelevant—than why does Clint Smith carry a 1911? It's not even a high capacity gun. Clint could carry anything he wanted to. He probably doesn't even have to pay full pop for the guns he carries. Given a choice between carrying a pistol in .45 ACP or a pistol in any other caliber including .380 (regardless of platform), he chose a .45. He could have chosen a 1911 platform pistol in any one of several calibers. I'm going to guess that Clint Smith chose the .45 based on a belief that it has more stopping power than a .380 or a 9mm, or a .40 S&W......regardless of his feelings about pistols versus long guns. Is he wrong?

Sorry for not expressing myself better. Caliber for sure makes difference! Never thought it irrelevant, only that people may not drop dead by instantly being hit by a .45 either, so failure to be a one-shot kill doesn't prove a caliber to be worthless. You certainly have a greater chance with each increase of size! Just saying it's all about tradeoff, what you can or be willing to carry.. .380 is better than a .22, or i'd carry that! Whole lots cheaper! :)

[KDD]

Shot placement, is king

[kjolly]

Many mouse guns now come as 9mm. Owning two of these I will testify the recoil makes them difficult to shoot and requires a lot of range time.
These are not fun to shoot but they conceal well. Most of us (hopefully) will carry most of our lives without needing a weapon for self defense but will bear the weight of the weapon every day. The 9mm mouse gun is a perfect solution once you get past being recoil sensitive.

[45 4 life]

Many of the compacts are not that confortable to shoot. However like I keep telling the wife and daughter, the compact Kahr in 40 caliber is not what I am going to take for recreation shooting, but I will shoot it enough to be comfortable, and proficient with it. Same goes for the Ruger LCP, I have big hands, and the micro's can be difficult.

However in a self defense situation you will never feel the recoil.

I never carry anything smaller than a 380. Shot placement, bullet selection, and now your limitations with what you are carrying.

[wgoforth]

Many of the compacts are not that confortable to shoot. However like I keep telling the wife and daughter, the compact Kahr in 40 caliber is not what I am going to take for recreation shooting, but I will shoot it enough to be comfortable, and proficient with it. Same goes for the Ruger LCP, I have big hands, and the micro's can be difficult.

However in a self defense situation you will never feel the recoil.

I never carry anything smaller than a 380. Shot placement, bullet selection, and now your limitations with what you are carrying.

I went from the Kel Tec P3AT to the LCP to the TCP, to the Smith and Wesson Body Guard for my CCW. Each seemed better than the other in recoil. The BG isn't bad at all. I credit it in part to the built in laser under the barrel giving it weight and balance.

[TexasFlash]

...ummm... throw out a rope; I think this thread is drifting away....
Dave

[kjolly]

My Kel Tec P-11 (9mm) is currently my favorite EDC because of ease of concealment in the summer heat.
Recently brought the SCCY CPX-1 which is a clone of the P-11. The gun in its early years had problems but they have retooled. It has a much smoother trigger than the P-11 slightly less felt recoil, not quite as loud and ambi safety. I am shooting MUCH better groups. I realy like the SCCY but as I said the gun does have a history of problems. Mine is having a problem with the trigger reset and have sent it back to the factory. Lifetime warranty. If they fix the reset problem and I throughly test it, will promote it to my every day carry.

[barres]

Lot's of stories of "I carry X, because of Y," but not much in actual answer to the OP's original question.

I have no documented reports of a mouse gun failing to stop a threat, but I remember a story a few years back (sorry, I can't remember the source, either) where medical/trauma personnel declared that the handgun caliber by which more people are killed each year than any other is the venerable .25 ACP. Yup, .25, not .45.

I would theorize that this comes from the ease with which a .25 can be concealed, combined with the distinct possibility that both shooters could have mortally wounded the other, but not immediately incapacitated them, thus allowing each other to keep shooting those man-stopper .25s.

[Purplehood]

Along with shot-placement, if I should ever be required to fire my .380 at a BG, I plan on emptying the magazine until and unless that BG stops. After a round or two of apparent failure to stop, my shot-placement would start going from center-mass to head. If I have any rounds left and the BG is still moving, I would probably go for the legs. After that, I would resort to my legs for running.

[chasfm11]

...ummm... throw out a rope; I think this thread is drifting away....
Dave

Yep.. going.... going... gone.

So we ended up with one incident where a mouse gun failed but given the reported shot placement (except for the chest wound), it is likely that other calibers would have failed to stop the assailant, too.

[Excaliber]

Lot's of stories of "I carry X, because of Y," but not much in actual answer to the OP's original question.

I have no documented reports of a mouse gun failing to stop a threat, but I remember a story a few years back (sorry, I can't remember the source, either) where medical/trauma personnel declared that the handgun caliber by which more people are killed each year than any other is the venerable .25 ACP. Yup, .25, not .45.

I would theorize that this comes from the ease with which a .25 can be concealed, combined with the distinct possibility that both shooters could have mortally wounded the other, but not immediately incapacitated them, thus allowing each other to keep shooting those man-stopper .25s.

That must have been a really old study. In over 20 years of police work in the NY metro area, most shootings were .38 and 9mm, with a smattering of the smaller calibers thrown in.

[Excaliber]

...ummm... throw out a rope; I think this thread is drifting away....
Dave

Yep.. going.... going... gone.

So we ended up with one incident where a mouse gun failed but given the reported shot placement (except for the chest wound), it is likely that other calibers would have failed to stop the assailant, too.

When I lived in Florida, a home invader broke into a single woman's home in the early morning hours and confronted her in her bed. She retrieved her .25ACP pistol from her nightstand and emptied it into her attacker. He beat her so badly that when she managed to crawl out of the house and ring a neighbor's doorbell, the neighbor didn't recognize her and refused to let her inside while he called police. The BG had died inside the victim's home by the time police found him. Her use of that gun did save her life, but I wouldn't call it a total success story.

In a case that happened in the city where I worked, a large man advised his wife that he was going to beat her over whatever they were arguing about. She pulled a .22 pistol and shot him several times (I don't remember how many) in the chest. He laughed and proceeded to carry out his threat. About 20 minutes later he started not feeling well and called for an ambulance. Shortly thereafter he died from massive internal blood loss, but he had long finished the beating on his wife.

Deaths from small caliber bullet wounds often occur from carefully placed shots in surprise attack situations, or from massive infections many hours or days after the shooting. In my book, that doesn't make them good choices for defense, since my time frame criterion for successful stops is measured in seconds, not minutes, hours, or days.

Death of the attacker is not my objective - stopping him before he causes my death is.

[speedsix]

...why do they always save the best for last?????

"...Death of the attacker is not my objective - stopping him before he causes my death is."