Mental Health and CHL

[45 4 life]

I have been a member for a short time, but have certainly come to trust the opinions that I read on this forum.

My problem is this. My Father in Law has a family history of mental healh issues. The entire family has noticed that during the past 6-7 years his ability to deal with reality has simply gone away. Unprevoked acts of anger, followed buy uncontrollable crying, road rage, and talks of suicide are just some of the more glaring of his problems. He will not discuss the idea of possibly seaking professional help. As with many others he does not beleive he has a problem, and will immeadiatly place blame on others in any circumstance.

My in-law also has his CHL and does not return to requalify for several years.

I do hate to interfere with his personal rights, but I am starting to worry about safety of others that comes in contact with him including some family members. He has hunted his entire life and has many firearms. Preventing him from carrying would not solve the problem, but if he was instructed to no longer carry a firearm it might enlighten him to the potential danger.

Of course the other side of the coin is that both my inlaws are in there 80's and unarmed are certainly easy targets for those looking for the easy way to make a dollar. I am also a firm supporter of the 2nd amendment and would fight to the end if someone where to come to my door for my firearms.

Any thoughts from this group would be appreciated. I am not sure if there is anything I can do about the CHL, not sure I would do it if I could. I just dont want to see the Old Man get himself in trouble.

[txinvestigator]

DPS can revoke his license if he;


(1) has been diagnosed by a licensed physician as suffering from a psychiatric disorder or condition that causes or is likely to cause substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse control, or intellectual ability;
(2) suffers from a psychiatric disorder or condition described by Subdivision (1) that:
(A) is in remission but is reasonably likely to redevelop at a future time; or
(B) requires continuous medical treatment to avoid redevelopment;
(3) has been diagnosed by a licensed physician or declared by a court to be incompetent to manage the person's own affairs; or
(4) has entered in a criminal proceeding a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity.
(e) The following constitutes evidence that a person has a psychiatric disorder or condition described by Subsection (d)(1):
(1) involuntary psychiatric hospitalization in the preceding five-year period;
(2) psychiatric hospitalization in the preceding two-year period;
(3) inpatient or residential substance abuse treatment in the preceding five-year period;
(4) diagnosis in the preceding five-year period by a licensed physician that the person is dependent on alcohol, a controlled substance, or a similar substance; or
(5) diagnosis at any time by a licensed physician that the person suffers or has suffered from a psychiatric disorder or condition consisting of or relating to:
(A) schizophrenia or delusional disorder;
(B) bipolar disorder;
(C) chronic dementia, whether caused by illness, brain defect, or brain injury;
(D) dissociative identity disorder;
(E) intermittent explosive disorder; or
(F) antisocial personality disorder.

If you have none of that, you might talk to someone at MHMR about the procedure for obtaining an involuntary mental commitment. To get one you will have to swear out to a magistrate that he is an immediate danger to himself or others, but they can give you much better information than I can. He may not even qualify.

Based on what you have written, an intervention seems appropriate and necessary. I know this is difficult, but how would you feel if you did nothing, and he kills someone, including himself?

[WildBill]

My problem is this. My Father in Law has a family history of mental healh issues. The entire family has noticed that during the past 6-7 years his ability to deal with reality has simply gone away. Unprevoked acts of anger, followed buy uncontrollable crying, road rage, and talks of suicide are just some of the more glaring of his problems. He will not discuss the idea of possibly seaking professional help. As with many others he does not beleive he has a problem, and will immeadiatly place blame on others in any circumstance.
Any thoughts from this group would be appreciated. I am not sure if there is anything I can do about the CHL, not sure I would do it if I could. I just dont want to see the Old Man get himself in trouble.

I am not a doctor or a lawyer, but it doesn't seem to me that the CHL is the major concern here. If he is acting the way you described he could do major damage with or without the CHL. I would think that if you want to get the CHL cancelled then just take him from his wallet at night and send it to the DPS with a note that says to void it. I would also suggest to remove all firearms from his home and store them in a secure place.

I agree with TXi that some kind of immediate intervention is necessary before he does some major harm. Don't discuss the possibly of professional help with him. Make an appointment and take him there ASAP.

Good luck to you 45 4 life.

[txinvestigator]

There is no legislation in place for DPS to viod a CHL based on a note from some in-law. Taking his CHL without his permission is also theft.

Removing someone's firearms without permission is also theft.

This is why it is critical that he take some official action. ;)

[WildBill]

My post is about "what I would do". This may not be the best or optimum solution, but I could live with it.

IANAL, but I would think that a spouse could remove weapons without breaking any law as they would be community property. The CHL is a different story. Regardless if it is voided he needs to have it on his person to legally carry so if it was "misplaced" he couldn't legally carry. While I do not advocate breaking the law, I personally would remove the weapons and take possession of the CHL. If you take the car keys away from a person who is drunk, that is theft, but I don't think you will get arrested for it.

[txinvestigator]

My post is about "what I would do". This may not be the best or optimum solution, but I could live with it.

IANAL, but I would think that a spouse could remove weapons without breaking any law as they would be community property. The CHL is a different story. Regardless if it is voided he needs to have it on his person to legally carry so if it was "misplaced" he couldn't legally carry. While I do not advocate breaking the law, I personally would remove the weapons and take possession of the CHL. If you take the car keys away from a person who is drunk, that is theft, but I don't think you will get arrested for it.

A spouse would be in a better position to "take" things away from the man, I agree. However, if his CHL vanishes, he can order a new one online. I also concede your point about the drunk driver, but he is an immediate and demonstrable danger. If the OP can demonstrate that his dad-in law is a danger, he can force him to get some help. ;)

[WildBill]

A spouse would be in a better position to "take" things away from the man, I agree. However, if his CHL vanishes, he can order a new one online.

But given the current backlog it could take 90 days.
As I orginally stated, the CHL is a minor concern to me as he could carry either way. If he doesn't have a gun, then he can't carry. If he shot himself or someone else, it is [to quote you] a moo point.

[M9FAN]

I agree completely with txinvestigator and WildBill's well-stated comments.

[srothstein]

I am assuming you are more concerned with your in-law's health than any of the other concerns, though they are valid also. Given that he will not admit a problem and go seek help, I can only think of one way to force it without going the commitment route.

Right a letter to the DPS concerning his medical ability to drive and your concerns. They can order him to go for an exam to retain the driver's license. This will at least get him in front of a doctor one time. I don't know if they have this ability for the CHL or not, but I know it is provided for in driver's licensing.

And I have to admit to not having much hope for him truly benefiting from this. As a general rule, you cannot get a person help if he is not willing to go and at least admit a problem. This is true for addictions and for mental illnesses. My prayer is that this might help you convince him to talk with a doctor to see if there is a problem.

Sorry I can't help more. That is about all I can think of that might work out well.

[WildBill]

I am assuming you are more concerned with your in-law's health than any of the other concerns, though they are valid also. Given that he will not admit a problem and go seek help, I can only think of one way to force it without going the commitment route.

Again I am not a doctor, but all of the symptoms described can be attributed to Alzheimer's, rather than other form of "mental illness." He is at the age where many people suffer from this disease. 45 4 life said that he was concerned about his interfering with his in-laws rights. IMO commitment, welfare, protective services, conservatorship or any other government involvement should be a last resort. Any of these options severely limit your rights and freedom of choice.

Again, I suggest you get rid their home of weapons and get him to a doctor ASAP. Maybe there is some relatively simple treatment or medication that can quickly improve his mental state so that you are not so concerned for his safety. It's not easy and I wish you the best.

[locknload]

All of the above suggestions are good, IF you are absolutely certain that his condition is mental or emotional. If so, I would have to agree with you wholeheartedly. However, be prepared for him to be very angry with you and never to speak to you again, if he disagrees. Could you live with that? I'd explore other reasons, before I took such a drastic step as having him declared incompetent. He might never forgive you for that. I know I wouldn't, if my kids did something like that to me. I'd refuse to ever see them or have anything to do with them, even if they were right. In my opinion, my business is my business, and my kids have no business in my business; and if they try to put themselves in my business, I'll give them the business. You see, I don't agree with the psychiatric community. I think they're a bunch of arrogant demi-gods that go around meddling in other peoples' affairs, where they don't belong. IMHO, if my kids did one of these "interventions," they'd be on my bad side for the rest of their lives. Just a word of caution, in case your Dad might feel the same way.

What if it is something as simple as a reaction to meds or over- or under-medication from some of his prescriptions? Or, perhaps, an infection or something as simple as an ulcer or diverticulitis. That has a component of depression, too. I'd be careful to rule out all physical illnesses, before I upset the apple cart. My Dad often takes too much or too little of his prescriptions ... he's 84 ... and often there are emotional consequences, once they are in balance again, he is OK. Also, both of my parents go through days of worrying about dying, when they say morbid things, but they would never actually kill themselves. Sometimes, they say things to get us to come over there and see them. Once they have what they want, a little more attention, the morbid talk is forgotten.

My caution is to just be certain that you have exhausted all other possibilities, before you do anything drastic, and be willing to live with the consequences of meddling where you don't belong ... in his eyes, if that is they way that he would think. I believe that there are way too many interventions, where other, simpler, things would have worked far better, with much less disturbance and upheaval of the person's life. Once you get the authorities involved, you may lose all control of your Father's future. They often take control and leave the patient and the family out of any decisions, then the patient is denied the right to die with dignity.

[txinvestigator]

No one suggested he be declared incompetent. Nothing will be done if he is not evaluated by a professional, and that won't get done in his case unless someone intervenes.

At his age, Alzheimers is certainly a possibiity. Still, that can cause him to be a danger himself and others.

I think we all agree he needs intervention. According to the OP, this is just not about the father-in-law, it is a fear for the safety of others.

The letter to DPS regarding his DL is another good idea. There is no such mechanism in place for the CHL.

Best wishes for your situation

[shootthesheet]

Maybe an M.D. can help. Age is not an automatic reason for these types of behavior. It could be as simple as medication interaction that is causing major mood swings. My Grandmother has gone thru that as well as stopping meds on her own and having problems. Some combinations of drugs can do this to anyone. He may have a problem but I think getting him to a new doctor, with his meds, might be a good first step. Let the doctor look at what he is taking and evaluate him during the visit. I would look for a cause before assuming that it is just old age or mental problem. Just my uneducated opinion.

[45 4 life]

As expected all good info and advice.

I will discuss with my mother in law the possibility of contacting DPS about the drivers license. As some of the post mentioned we are all worried that the individual that he decides is instigating these efforts will be the anti-christ. If it is me I might as well go down and tatoo 666 on my skull. Unfortunatly someone will have to do it.

We have discussed this with his M.D. and there is some hope down that avenue as well. We will continue there as well.

You have all shown me that my thoughts and concerns on this are valid. That is comforting to know, sometimes if you are to close to the subject your thoughts can get a little clouded.

Thank you all for the post.

seamusTX,
I tried to respond to your PM, but it seems to be hung in my outbox. Special thanks to you from the family!

[tvone]

Having dealt with a mentally ill person for years, you have my prayers. It's difficult to get help and to the decisions that might need to be made. Your mother in-law may be the only person to make those decisions. There's a major difference between involuntary and voluntary commitment. Seek advice from a qualified mental health provider, not just his MD.

tvone