Church Threat Response

[longtooth]

Thoughts on Threat Response & Resolution In Small Churches


Rather than PM this to all that have shown interest lately, for time sake I am going to put it on the public board for any and all to read. Some of you that have current requests for this, I know or am well acquainted with on the board, but others I do not and I am going to write this to cover any or all who in the future will want to read, modify or otherwise use it. I do not copy write anything I do. You do not need to quote me or in any other way “give credits.� If it is of value, use it. If not discard it.

I will first offer a word of caution & give the reason for it. There have been on our board in the past some that would start a thread or discussion & that theme would be something like, “when can I shoot� or “would you shoot�, or “I got to draw my weapon today�. These are some I remember off the top of my head but are not all.

Therefore my preface.

If you have a Texas CHL & are armed in your church you are not a security guard. There are no security guards in Jubilee Baptist church. No one is assigned to guard or secure any area.
If you think you are security, if you are called security personal, have a colored hat, or pin on name tag different from anyone else that even secretly identifies you as being armed & hints that you are there to protect the congregation you are probably in violation of the law. NO WHERE IN THIS WILL I EVER TELL ANYONE WHEN I THINK THEY COULD, SHOULD, MAY BE ABLE LEGALLY TO DRAW A WEAPON. That will be your decision.

If your only interest in our “Threat Response Plan� is how & when to shoot in the worst case scenario then you will not be remotely prepared for the most likely disturbance possibilities in your church.

Jubilee Baptist Church is a small church w/ only 2 buildings. They are situated close together. Sanctuary can seat comfortable 100. The Education building has 4 Sunday School rooms & a fellowship hall w/ kitchen. If you attend a large church w/ several buildings & attendance from several hundred to a few thousand I do not know how this might help you past starting the thinking process.
Greeters should be at every door & in the parking lot for aged who need help or for visitation & ministry. We will have prayer meetings in our parking lot for every thing from illnesses to problems. Greeters should be observant. Know the signs of trouble. In small churches family or acquaintance conflict or other problems are know & will reveal themselves when people may show up that have never been there & are not happy.

For disturbance or no weapon violence. Shouting at preacher during message, cuss fight between teens, real fight between two or more, panhandlers that don’t take no for an answer,.....anything that is not a weapons disturbance against the general body as a whole.
Anything that is a public scene that makes the general congregation uncomfortable then it must be dealt with immediately.

1. Someone that always has a cell phone is assigned to get out of the immediate area & call the police immediately. If you have more than one let one do the talking. Dispatch does not need a bunch of conflicting info.

2. They give the location in the building of the disturbance & the nature. That person can not return to the scene before LEO arrives. Everyone knows who they have called. A woman is good here but they have got to be willing to leave & let someone else take care of their children if they have Kids. Older person w/o kids is best.
Never, EVER< NEVER tell LEO there are CHLers armed if it is an unarmed disturbance. Wait till they ask for ID. If a big city LEO knows there are armed CHLers there is no telling how they may come in & may not come in until swat teams are there.

3. No matter what the trouble maker (from now on TM) says the telephoner has got to GO & NEVER HESITATE, don’t look back, walk out. (I.e. you come back here, or I’ll.....) If it is resolved by the time the LEOs get there that is OK. Don’t wait. Walk, do not run. Walk is in control, run is fear.
This & the next step take control of the situation out of the hands of the TM & establishes it in your hands. As the telephoner goes someone should be assigned to go to all other buildings & lock doors letting teachers or staff know what is taking place.

4. You need an exit plan for the congregation. When TMs don’t have anyone watching them they are not in control of anything & not getting attention they want.
The regular all time attendees need to know they are to follow instructions from leaders. Visitors & irregulars will follow what they see. These leaders do not necessarily have to be men; they can even be assertive women. They need to know a place outside to go. Start them walking out (DO NOT RUN). Tell them, "follow the leader, walk don’t run". Repeat "follow the leader, walk don’t run." Running shows fear. Walking says "I am in control". Never stop. Never look at TM. Walk out. Start them singing as they walk out. Jesus Loves Me, a known praise chorus…That keeps the mind occupied & stifles fear. Especially in children. Keeps commands from TM from being heard by people. These 2 things take control completely out of the hands of TMs.
As this is taking place your willing men need to WALK quickly to the spot & surround him. Running is attack, walking is control.

5. Give commands. Calm down, stop it... Your hands out front open. Pointed fingers fuel an already angry fire. Stay double arms length away if possible. If it is a real fist fight between 2 real fighters intervene w/ great caution. Better 2 brawlers beat each other than hurt you or someone not used to fighting.
Armed CHLers NEVER rumble, wrestle, or physically try to stop a fight. Lose that gun & real trouble can happen.
If it is one beating on a lesser person do what you see appropriate.

6. As soon as LEO arrive clear away from TM & EVERY ONE point at him. Get well away from TM all pointing & not talking. They will know immediately who the TM is. They will not have to tell a crowd to get away from them; they will have safe space to deal w/ TM & not have to watch others. Go sit down somewhere preferably together. Steps on the stage is good. All witnesses are together. Wait for Qs to be asked. Wait till asked for ID before telling you are armed.
This says I am not in it any more & lets them focus on the TM. Wait for the LEO to start asking Qs. Don’t start talking all at once. That will be the tendency. If TM runs let LEO chase him. They don’t need any help.


For a Panhandler That wont take No

No, we won’t give money. No, that is all the gas we will give you.
I have had these remind me how many times they have been in prison or how if they are off their meds they are not responsible for their behavior. That is not against the law yet & not an official illegal threat to your person.

“Well sir, then I need to remind you how many times I have called the police & had folks escorted away from here. This response needs to be practiced. If you do not practice verbal responses you will not use them. Physical responses need to be practiced, so do verbal ones. Don’t hesitate, call LEO. It is alright to say to the officer, “we have it resolved but stay close.� He will probably want id & check him out anyway. If they run off let them go. Give description & direction.

For TMs who have contact weapons & not guns. This would be knife, club, .... I never have seen this but needs to be addressed.

Everyone has got to know not to run.

1. Everyone get on the floor. Command them "Everyone get down on the floor DO NOT RUN. Get on the floor."

2. Telephoner gets outside as above & does the calling. Someone notifies & locks all other buildings.

3. Those in close proximity to TM who are willing give commands and approach TM carefully. "Put it down, face the wall put it down get on the floor...." Some will probably need to still be telling the people to get on the floor & don’t run. Running, they are getting in the way of those able to do something. Remember you are not hired security guards & there are none at Jubilee Baptist Church.

4. Remember the 21 ft rule. I will never tell anyone when to draw. If he attacks everyone must make their own decision on involvement, fight, weapon use….

5. When TM is subdued stay at safe distance & wait on LEO.
If a CHLer has drawn, I suggest everyone reholster but stay prepared. Don’t need the LEOs to come in w/ 5 guns out. Should have a good buffer distance now between the TM & men of the church.

6. Now march folks out singing as above.

7. When LEOs arrive back away quickly & everyone point at TM, one person state he has a weapon & name it telling location. Give plenty of room, sit if possible, and wait for Qs before answering. Don’t talk all at once. Probably Pastor should be the spokesperson unless you are asked.


If shooting starts.
1. Tele Person runs out to make call. Never hesitate, now is the time to RUN. Don’t stop, GO. Tell LEO shooters location. Never return.

2. Shooter will most likely never give a clear shot at him. Will be walking down isle & shooting at contact range. People will probably run in spite of commands.

3. Holler give commands, to congregation. Get on the floor, don’t run, get down.

4. Remember there has been only one return fire resolution that I know of. If there is a circle around the TM walking down a center isle (most likely place) no one can return fire. If he is on an outside isle against a wall there is a possibility but only if everyone gets on the floor.

5. Those willing to fight & take shooter down w/ people running & screaming should rush & keep coming until he is down. Push people down, out of the way, run over children, what ever it takes. Shouting commands, "get down, don’t run, get on the floor." Here every man must make his own decision when to draw or fire. It is highly possible that you can get to the TM faster than you can draw a weapon.

6. After TM is subdued, march everyone out to a safe place in the manner described above. Someone now needs to call for Medical assistance too.

7. LEOs arrive all arms already put away if possible. All CHLers in the same spot & identify as such. Do what told & ask for a lawyer before making a statement.



I remind everyone that I am not a lawyer or law enforcement. Nothing above can be construed as legal advice by any one. I remind you that you are not a security guard. There are none at Jubilee Baptist Church.
You alone are responsible for your actions, especially if you decide to use a weapon against another.

I do hope this is of help to many. Use what you can w/o worry of credits. I do not copy write anything. Discard the rest.

Respectfully offered as a help ony.
Jerry W. Young.
aka LT

[Tactical_Texan_CHL]

Thanks, LT!

[WarHawk-AVG]

Great post!

Its a bad sign of the times when you need a reaction plan in effect for a shooter or TM in a church!

Pray, and pray hard that you will be prepared, and NEVER have to use the plan...EVER

[M9FAN]

Great post!

Its a bad sign of the times when you need a reaction plan in effect for a shooter or TM in a church!

Pray, and pray hard that you will be prepared, and NEVER have to use the plan...EVER

[Tim the Teacher]

Thanks LT....this will help tremendously. Hope to repay the favor someday

[lonestar]

Thanks LT! - lonestar

[nemesis]

Your plan is well thought out and has significant merit but I would like to, respectfully, make some additional suggestions.


The THREAT is down. Take command.

Ascertain that there are no weapons in reaching distance of the downed THREAT.

Designate someone to administer First Aid.

Have Pastor move congregation to Fellowship Hall and record names of all adults and children. I certainly don't want women and children standing around a body.

Call Police and advise that situation is under control and you are awaiting their arrival.

Assign someone to be at front of Church to confirm that situation is under control and to escort police to site of action.

Do not move anything or change anything or cleanup scene.

Give thanks that everyone is safe.

File suit against family of former THREAT for the cost of ammunition and cleaning supplies.

[Harold]

Hello,

This is my first post on this excellent forum. I am in the "agonizing wait" period - it has been 4 weeks since I took the CHL class and mailed my packet (check cleared 1/9).

Anyway, I am a bit confused by this post. I thought a "place of worship" is one of the prohibited areas in Texas where CHL holders are *not allowed* to carry. I admit the recent Colorado church predator solution is probably "the" straw that broke the camel's back for me (my two daughters were the exact same ages as the man's two daughters who were killed in that church's parking lot, I cried uncontrolably when that story broke on the radio a few weeks ago imagining myself unable to protect my family in a similar situation).

My CHL instructor listed "place of worship" along with amusement park, hospital, etc. as places I cannot carry even with a CHL. The info on the Texas CHL website and in the handbook also states this.

So, I hope you can see my confusion. I realize much of the talk in this thread is just about handling threats in Church and that is good - but it seems to me a carrying CHL licensee would be in big trouble when the LEO's show up and find out he is packing in the pew so to speak. Please enlighten me.

thanks,
Harold

[lawrnk]

Is it a good idea to post the name of the church? suppose someone had a beef with your church and found this plan when googling it?
Just my 2 cents

[KC5AV]

Welcome to the Forum, Harold. Churches used to be off-limits. That has changed, though, and they are now required to properly post 30.06 signs if they wish to restrict CHL holders.

John

Hello,

This is my first post on this excellent forum. I am in the "agonizing wait" period - it has been 4 weeks since I took the CHL class and mailed my packet (check cleared 1/9).

Anyway, I am a bit confused by this post. I thought a "place of worship" is one of the prohibited areas in Texas where CHL holders are *not allowed* to carry. I admit the recent Colorado church predator solution is probably "the" straw that broke the camel's back for me (my two daughters were the exact same ages as the man's two daughters who were killed in that church's parking lot, I cried uncontrolably when that story broke on the radio a few weeks ago imagining myself unable to protect my family in a similar situation).

My CHL instructor listed "place of worship" along with amusement park, hospital, etc. as places I cannot carry even with a CHL. The info on the Texas CHL website and in the handbook also states this.

So, I hope you can see my confusion. I realize much of the talk in this thread is just about handling threats in Church and that is good - but it seems to me a carrying CHL licensee would be in big trouble when the LEO's show up and find out he is packing in the pew so to speak. Please enlighten me.

thanks,
Harold

[Photoman]

It may be in there and I missed it, but I would remind all to look for others with the one that is the problem. The problem might even be a diversion.

[flintknapper]

Hello,

This is my first post on this excellent forum. I am in the "agonizing wait" period - it has been 4 weeks since I took the CHL class and mailed my packet (check cleared 1/9).

Anyway, I am a bit confused by this post. I thought a "place of worship" is one of the prohibited areas in Texas where CHL holders are *not allowed* to carry. I admit the recent Colorado church predator solution is probably "the" straw that broke the camel's back for me (my two daughters were the exact same ages as the man's two daughters who were killed in that church's parking lot, I cried uncontrolably when that story broke on the radio a few weeks ago imagining myself unable to protect my family in a similar situation).

My CHL instructor listed "place of worship" along with amusement park, hospital, etc. as places I cannot carry even with a CHL. The info on the Texas CHL website and in the handbook also states this.

So, I hope you can see my confusion. I realize much of the talk in this thread is just about handling threats in Church and that is good - but it seems to me a carrying CHL licensee would be in big trouble when the LEO's show up and find out he is packing in the pew so to speak. Please enlighten me.

thanks,
Harold

Hi Harold,

Unfortunately, some instructors don't read all the way down.

Texas Penal Code § 46.035. Unlawful Carrying of Handgun By License Holder:

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
.
.
.
(4) on the premises of a hospital ...
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
.
.
.
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

[Harold]

Thanks flintknapper, that's what I needed to see. I found that in my handbook also - I guess it is just confusing to this non-lawyer the way it is written (i.e. you can't do this ... oh that doesn't apply). So this is good news to me! Has anyone ever heard of a church posting 30.06 signs in Texas?

Harold