Carry w/o license on apartment property

[RiveraRa]

I dont yet have my CHL in being that Ive only lived here for about 4 months now, so there is a lot that I am unaware of still. I did have a question about a scenario that came to mind. It is legal to carry concealed on private property even if you dont have a CHL correct? Therefore it is legal to carry concealed in your apartment building if you live in one. The question now becomes, since the apartment complex (pool, parking lot, club house, etc) is private property that you are leasing, are you legally allowed to carry concealed on this "common ground" even if you do not have a license?

[seamusTX]

Without a CHL, you can legally carry a handgun in three circumstances:

• On premises that you own or control.
• Inside a motor vehicle that you own or control.
• While going from your premises to a vehicle.

In general, you cannot legally carry in the common areas of an apartment or condo because the premises are not under your control, even if you have partial ownership.

(I am leaving out other exceptions like traveling and hunting.)

- Jim

[Pinkycatcher]

I dont yet have my CHL in being that Ive only lived here for about 4 months now, so there is a lot that I am unaware of still. I did have a question about a scenario that came to mind. It is legal to carry concealed on private property even if you dont have a CHL correct? Therefore it is legal to carry concealed in your apartment building if you live in one. The question now becomes, since the apartment complex (pool, parking lot, club house, etc) is private property that you are leasing, are you legally allowed to carry concealed on this "common ground" even if you do not have a license?

You can ask and get permission from the apartment complex and carry there, but Seamus basically said the rest

[seamusTX]

I don't think there is any provision in the law for giving someone permission to carry on private property without a CHL.

When store employees carry, as they commonly do in gun shops, it's more a case of tradition and necessity.

There is also a question here of how you would get caught if you were breaking the law. The police rarely have a reason to go to an upscale apartment or condo; and when they do, it's for something specific like a domestic dispute.

Then you have apartment complexes where the police are called 500 times a year for fights, vandalism, break-ins, public drinking, etc. In that kind of place residents are much more at risk of being the subject of a Terry stop and subsequent arrest.

- Jim

[seamusTX]

That part of H.B. 1815 is badly written. It says,

A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

Then the requirement of concealment in a motor vehicle is added.

Read literally, this law says that you can carry a handgun, "illegal knife," or club from your premises to your vehicle, and it does not require concealment.

However, IMHO, it would be nuts to think that a police officer would not investigate if he saw you carrying openly in a public area.

This law also does not allow carrying a handgun from your vehicle to your premises, but the legislative intent was that you could go in either direction. If this isn't fixed in a future legislative session, it will probably end up being decided by case law.

- Jim

[BigDan]

You could always carry cased weapons (handgun, long guns) from your domicile to your vehicle and back. You could always carry a weapon that was not about your person when traveling over 3 counties away. What this latest law did was make it so your Castle is now extended to your home, but they didn't further clarify how to get from A to B. I would be under the impression that the same rules still applied as before and the weapon would still need to be cased and NOT ON THE PERSON. Now, I don't believe you need to have it unloaded, etc, but it should be in a bag or wrapped up when going from domicile to vehicle and back.

Put it in a readily accessible fanny pack holster that you are familiar with drawing from. It will draw differently when it is in your hand than on your waist, so practice it in case something happens in transit. You can also use it for drawing from concealment when INSIDE the vehicle. Just be sure you retain it somewhere in case of an accident. That way, you'll know where it is at all times and you're not trying to find it on the floorboard or under a seat.

[RiveraRa]

Thanks, I assumed as much but wanted to be clear.

[Charles L. Cotton]

That part of H.B. 1815 is badly written. It says,

If this isn't fixed in a future legislative session, it will probably end up being decided by case law.

- Jim

I can't go into why it's written that way, but it won't be "fixed." The entire car-carry concept is going to come under attack in 2009 and this is one of the provisions the police and prosecutors want removed.

Chas.

[Rex B]

That part of H.B. 1815 is badly written. It says,

If this isn't fixed in a future legislative session, it will probably end up being decided by case law.

- Jim

I can't go into why it's written that way, but it won't be "fixed." The entire car-carry concept is going to come under attack in 2009 and this is one of the provisions the police and prosecutors want removed.
Chas.

Now you've really got me wondering what's going on

[razoraggie]

If you are going from your apt to your car, does your handgun have to stay concealed if *not* carrying under the authority of your CHL?

Just another thought on this.....
Why would you NOT want to conceal going in and out of your apartment? Unfortunatley, apartments have a nasty habit of making you unit "accessable" to anyone the office deams fit. Be it the pest control guy, maintenance, etc. I would trust most apartment office personell as much as I could throw them. So why "advertise" what you have? To me, it'd be the same as letting everyone watch you carry in the new 50" plasma or the new computer. Even at my home, I keep things concealed until I am indoors. You never know who is watching you enter and leave your residence and most people are aware that invididulas that own one gun, own another and most of us do not carry all we own with us. Just be careful out there....especially in apartment land.

[rm9792]

You could always carry cased weapons (handgun, long guns) from your domicile to your vehicle and back. You could always carry a weapon that was not about your person when traveling over 3 counties away. What this latest law did was make it so your Castle is now extended to your home, but they didn't further clarify how to get from A to B. I would be under the impression that the same rules still applied as before and the weapon would still need to be cased and NOT ON THE PERSON. Now, I don't believe you need to have it unloaded, etc, but it should be in a bag or wrapped up when going from domicile to vehicle and back.

.

And this is how Urban Legend spreads. There was no county number designation, it was up to each judge if you were traveling or not. That is exactly why they keep trying to clarify the law. Wasnt 3 counties, overnight, 100+ miles, in a blue truck, etc. Law simply said "traveling", which could mean down the road to get the mail or panhandle to Brownsville. Also, Texas makes no distinction on loading except in availability to a minor.

[Liko81]

That part of H.B. 1815 is badly written. It says,

If this isn't fixed in a future legislative session, it will probably end up being decided by case law.

- Jim

I can't go into why it's written that way, but it won't be "fixed." The entire car-carry concept is going to come under attack in 2009 and this is one of the provisions the police and prosecutors want removed.
Chas.

Now you've really got me wondering what's going on

Police and DAs do not like the laws passed in 2007 that gave us "Stand your Ground" protections when firing in self-defense, or the car carry law, because it removes discretion on the part of the officer or LEO when deciding to arrest an individual for UCW (possibly preventing an imminent attack) or prosecute him/her for murder/manslaughter. Now, we all know where LEO discretion gets us; when police, who are under pressure from the city to curb crime, have the option of arresting or not arresting someone who may be committing a crime, what do you think they'll do? When DAs, who build careers on putting people away for life, have the discretion of prosecuting or declining a probable self-defense case, which do you think they'll choose? Just ask Harold Fish, who was prosecuted and convicted of manslaughter for defending himself against an angry, mentally-disturbed man. Just ask Richard Olofson, who is currently serving time for lending a malfunctioning rifle to a student (the charge was illegal transfer of a machine gun). And just ask Joe Horn, who, but for the opinion of the Grand Jury, would now be on trial for murder two for shooting two men who were unquestionably committing burglary, and who advanced on him when he confronted them.

Largely because of the Horn case, which most Houston-area DAs felt was a bad shoot, they're going to push the Legislature to pull the teeth out of the Castle Doctrine law. And every police chief and DA is going to ask that car carry be rescinded, citing possibilities of road-rage shootings, gang-style drive-bys, and illegal carry in workplaces, when in fact those stats have not changed significantly since we got car carry.

[rm9792]

2 things Russell:
1. Slippery Slope concept. Your definition of qualifies is different from mine, Cotton's, Lunchbox, etc. Whose going to say? This is a primary arguement of the grabbers.
2. 2d Amendment does not apply only to "qualified" individuals. I dont feel illiterates have any business running blogs, certain religions, etc. You take the good with the bad on your God given rights.
you want to feel safe move to a police state where everyone is told what to do and where to go.
I and others understand what you are saying but there is no way to predict who will snap and where. Soccer moms drown their kids, CEO dads shoot their families, no way of knowing.