Psycho hammers subway passenger

[srothstein]

Excaliber,

There is also a thought process the psychologists have labeled the bystander effect, which is what I was referring to. According to the Wikipedia article on it, one of the things they think is that the average person is unsure of their abilities and thinks someone else will know more about what to do and they will respond. As no one responds, it confirms that the person is not going to do the right thing because everyone else knows what to do and should do better.

I think that the OODA loop may also have something to do with it. Some people (Cops, CHL's, etc.) practice more on how to handle the OODA loop and distractions than most do. That is why they respond faster and do not freeze up as much. I have sen new rookies freeze when they first get into a stress situation, so there might be something to the OODA loop problem too.

[Excaliber]

This was a situation ideal for a garote. Now, if someone had used one on the attacker, most probably resulting in his death, those same Philly cops would be saying now of the defender, "Book him for murder." Trust me. It's East Coast all the way up there.

That is probably an accurate assessment. Fatal application of unusual martial arts weapons is generally inadvisable in such areas. However, no special skills would be required for 2 or more people to take a hammer away from someone in a relatively confined area when that person's attention is focused on another victim. Even one person could do it with somewhat greater risk. Even a verbal intervention - "Stop - He's already hurt - get away from him now!" is a viable tactic which may or may not have to be followed up with physical action.

[Excaliber]

Excaliber,

There is also a thought process the psychologists have labeled the bystander effect, which is what I was referring to. According to the Wikipedia article on it, one of the things they think is that the average person is unsure of their abilities and thinks someone else will know more about what to do and they will respond. As no one responds, it confirms that the person is not going to do the right thing because everyone else knows what to do and should do better.

I think that the OODA loop may also have something to do with it. Some people (Cops, CHL's, etc.) practice more on how to handle the OODA loop and distractions than most do. That is why they respond faster and do not freeze up as much. I have sen new rookies freeze when they first get into a stress situation, so there might be something to the OODA loop problem too.

Steve,

I would agree that the bystander effect is also involved, and may be the dominant factor in a situation like the subway attack. I also suspect that effect and the disaster behaviors are somehow intertwined. When you think about it, waiting for someone else who has a better idea of what he's doing to do something, and staying passive until someone assumes leadership and gives orders are pretty similar behaviors, but I've never seen that discussed in print. The bystander effect may actually be one manifestation of the passive response. I'm hoping to gain additional insight when I get my new reading material in a few days.

[phddan]

Through it all, disgusted investigators said, at least 10 passengers stood by and did nothing as the random attack moved from the train to the platform, when the hammer-wielding maniac tried to push his victim down onto the train tracks.

The investigators are disgusted as unarmed passengers do not take action against a lunatic?

Please tell me exactly who these armchair investigators think they are?

Would they take on a claw hammer looney unarmed?

I doubt it.

Anygunanywhere

I respectfully beg to differ.

I suspect that the investigators were disgusted at the inaction of the other passengers because they are sheepdogs and I am certain that, to a man, they would have acted to stop the attack if they had been there, armed or not. I think they had excellent grounds to feel as they did about the sheep on the train.

I don't know how many violent felony scenes you've investigated when the blood was still wet, how many HIV/HBV infected suspects you've gone hand to hand with, how many times you've been patched up in the emergency room afterwards, or how many psychopaths you've put in jail, but I respectfully suggest that you are not being fair to the officers here. They were as outraged as you are at what they saw, and they are clearly not "armchair investigators". They are out in the trenches of major city dealing with extremely violent offenders every day. It's easy to be a critic from one's armchair when one hasn't walked in the other guy's shoes - sorta like shouting in your living room at those stupid professional quarterbacks on TV.

In this case the officers responded to and are actively investigating a serious felony and will actively pursue and arrest the suspect. That arrest may well involve another physical altercation that would present a risk of injury to officers. Given the video and publicity, there is an excellent chance they will take the responsible party into custody and bring him before the courts. What more could you ask of them?

And I in turn, will respectfully disagree with this assessment.
LEO's are paid to respond to situations like this. LEO's are given hand to hand, firearms, tazer, strike weapons, and use of force training. They have armored vest. They have radio's. And they have back up.
Now, lets see what the "sheep" had to work with.
A cell phone, maybe.
How many times do we hear a LEO spokesperson decry people getting involved in situations such as this, and instead tell them to call 911.
And how many times do we hear of a person getting involved with defense of a third person getting sued. Or better yet, defend themselves and have their weapon confiscated, go to jail, and have to hire a lawyer.

"It's easy to be a critic from one's armchair when one hasn't walked in the other guy's shoes - sorta like shouting in your living room at those stupid professional quarterbacks on TV."

Goes both ways.

Dan

[Purplehood]

How many of those bystanders stand there and think to themselves, "Liability"?

I admit that I have.

[bdickens]

Maybe the combination of "authorities" and "experts" telling people to call 911 and let the police handle it and a litigious and sue happy society makes people reticent about getting involved.

[KRoyal]

I would have gotten the attention of another passenger then ran up on the guy kick him in the groin from behind and with the passengers help taken the hammer away. If that didn't work well don't know what I would have done, but i'm sure once one person started the charge others would join in.

[Excaliber]

Maybe the combination of "authorities" and "experts" telling people to call 911 and let the police handle it and a litigious and sue happy society makes people reticent about getting involved.

No doubt these are significant influences - on the sheep.

I like to think that one of the distinguishing marks of sheepdogs is they don't buy the passivity propaganda. They they can figure out when calling 911 will work and when they know there isn't time for the police to respond quickly enough to protect a victim from serious harm. They'll assess the situation and take well thought out action using what they have available at the time.

People who act in this manner to rescue others from imminent harm are not likely to have major legal issues. On the other hand, those who act recklessly and with excessive force are most certainly at risk, however noble their intentions.

[anygunanywhere]

I like to think that one of the distinguishing marks of sheepdogs is they don't buy the passivity propaganda.

You must think that the world's population of sheepdogs is larger than it actually is.

Anygunanywhere

[Excaliber]

And I in turn, will respectfully disagree with this assessment.
LEO's are paid to respond to situations like this. LEO's are given hand to hand, firearms, tazer, strike weapons, and use of force training. They have armored vest. They have radio's. And they have back up.
Now, lets see what the "sheep" had to work with.
A cell phone, maybe.
How many times do we hear a LEO spokesperson decry people getting involved in situations such as this, and instead tell them to call 911.
And how many times do we hear of a person getting involved with defense of a third person getting sued. Or better yet, defend themselves and have their weapon confiscated, go to jail, and have to hire a lawyer.

"It's easy to be a critic from one's armchair when one hasn't walked in the other guy's shoes - sorta like shouting in your living room at those stupid professional quarterbacks on TV."

Goes both ways.

Dan, I think you missed my point. Let's look again at what I said:

I suspect that the investigators were disgusted at the inaction of the other passengers because they are sheepdogs and I am certain that, to a man, they would have acted to stop the attack if they had been there, armed or not. I think they had excellent grounds to feel as they did about the sheep on the train.

What I was trying to communicate is that most officers are protective of others by nature. If they had witnessed the subway attack while off duty, most of the ones I've known would have actively intervened even if unarmed. Sure, there are exceptions, but I've worked with a lot of officers from a lot of agencies for a lot of years, and I hold this view with deep confidence born from long and consistent experience.

I didn't arrive at these views from my armchair. In my own department, I commanded well over a hundred officers and led them through every kind of incident you can think of (and probably some you couldn't make up if you tried). I chose to do it as much as possible out in the same streets they worked in, and when it was in the best interests of command I took point going in. I was in the perfect position to see what really goes on in the daily actions of police officers.

I saw more selfless action and heroism in 30 days, month after month, than most folks outside the other emergency services and the military get to see in a lifetime. That's hard to understand if your only contact with LEO's is when you get pulled over, and you haven't had the privilege of working alongside folks like this in situation after situation where lives (yours, theirs, and others') are actually on the line and everyone is keenly aware that there are no "do overs".

Yes, on duty officers are provided with lots of life safety equipment and weapons - it'd be pretty tough to talk folks into doing that kind of job without them. The equipment helps, but the officers injured and killed statistics stand as clear evidence that the gear doesn't make the work safe by any means.

Most officers are very conscious of the fact that they are often just one small mistake away from being killed any time they confront violence, and if they forget they get reminded by close calls frequently enough. This situation is not common in the work lives of most of the folks they serve, and it is not surprising that officers' character and beliefs are often seen as different and are poorly understood. Many folks only see them as good guys when they are physically standing between a citizen and an immediate threat of violence. The rest of the time they're often disparaged as uncaring, excessively violent, or having poor judgment and they are looked down upon by large segments of the population because they get their hands dirty in the worst possible circumstances that others get to pontificate about later.

To return to the subway attack which is the subject of this post, the bystanders had a lot more than cellphones to work with. They had superior numbers, they had collectively superior strength, and they had the ability to engage from multiple directions at once. Those are overwhelming advantages if used against a single individual, even one armed with a contact weapon like a hammer that cannot project lethal force at a distance.

We can speculate but never know for sure why they failed to come to the aid of the innocent victim in this instance. Perhaps what they were told over the years played a role, and I can't defend anyone in law enforcement or outside it who preaches that "let the police handle it" is always the right answer, although it's certainly frequently good advice. I would certainly question the sanity of someone who would fail to defend himself against a deadly threat because he might face legal issues later.

With all that being said, and knowing that some will disagree, I remain confident that the true sheepdogs among us share the investigating officers' view that the other passengers' failure to act when needed was not one of mankind's more noble moments.

[Excaliber]

I like to think that one of the distinguishing marks of sheepdogs is they don't buy the passivity propaganda.

You must think that the world's population of sheepdogs is larger than it actually is.

Anygunanywhere

Well, there's no doubt we could use a lot more, but I've been privileged to meet quite a number so I don't see them as a rare or endangered species.

I've also found that there are lots of "latent sheepdogs" around who only need a little encouragement to jump in and do the right thing when needed.

[srothstein]

Dan,

Let me try to explain what Excaliber was saying a little differently. You need to understand that there is a sharp difference between street cops and administrators.

Most street level cops do not, truly do not, understand why people do not step in and protect themselves and others. It is a part of their psychological makeup and what they are. I think that they would have jumped in if they were off duty or even after retirement, armed or not in a case like this. Many of them would have jumped in even before they were cops.

I have seen this kind of attitude in a lot of cops. They do not understand how people cannot help others or stand up for themselves. You see it a lot in cops handling domestic disturbances where there are repeat calls to the same house for the one spouse beating up the other. Why do they stay there? Street cops do not understand this kind of behavior. We have all sorts of classes with social workers who try to explain it to us, including the psychological problems people have. A lot of street cops just cannot understand this and the best they ever get is to accept that some people are different from them.

One of the causes of this attitude is a natural human tendency to think that we are nromal and most other people are just like us. An honest person tends to be more trusting of others since he sees others as honest. A smart person tends to think that the average intelligence level is higher and the examples of stupidity he sees are the exceptions. Cops tend to be more self confident and aggressive and think other people are also that way.

All of these common perceptions are wrong as everyone is different and individuals. Some people are smart, some are strong, some are confident, and some are not.

As for what you were saying, I fully understand your sentiments and agree. Cops are trained and armed and it does make a difference. If I found that there had been a cop on the train who did not jump in, even if he were off duty, I would do my best to get him fired for those reasons. I also do not hold the people in disgust and feel the cops who said so were dead wrong.

[KBCraig]

...those same Philly cops... It's East Coast all the way up there.

Philadelphia is West New Jersey. They might as well re-route the river.

The rest of the state despises the "city of first class".

[dihappy]

I think its sad that no one acted :(

I can say that my actions would be made out of selfish reasons almost. The idea that i would surely want someone to act if it was happening to me has been what drives me to act to help someone.

It was what drove me to act in tackling some guy who was beating a women out front at a gas station.

I was so surprised that no one was doing anything when i heard a commotion and saw people outside staring for a few seconds. It wasnt until i moved over to see what was happening did i see this guy beating on some girl. I looked around in amazement for a split second as people casually watched and pumped gas into their cars. I must have run past 3 people before i tackled the coward to the ground trying to hold him down before he scrambled to his feet and ran away.

I was so angry.

[KD5NRH]

FWIW, they caught the attacker:
http://www.nationalterroralert.com/upda ... ct-arrest/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;