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If there is already a thread about this, I apologize. I tried searching, but my skills are not the best. I am looking for opinions on carrying ball ammo for enhanced penetration in the event that I run up against a shooter wearing body armor of some sort. (No, I am not talking about Police. I don't intend any exchanges of gun fire with Police Officers.) Currently I am carrying a Colt Commander .45, which feeds everything I have tried in it. I am carrying JHP in the first clip for standard self-defense. I am then carrying two spare clips which I am loading with FMJ. My reasoning is that in the extremely rare event that I would need a reload, I may be dealing with a para-military type shooter/s. Living on the border and seeing what is going on in Juarez, this is something that crosses my mind. In this event, I reason that FMJ will give me better penetration to deal with barriers or armor. I understand that if I have a shooter wearing a NIJ Type IIIA vest, FMJ won't likely penetrate, but still may provide more shock. I have no intentions of intervening in a drug hit, but I don't want to be a "wrong place at the wrong time" victim either. Am I way off base here with my ammo choice? Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Carry a rifle.

I carry either .40S&W or .45ACP. In either case, the gun is loaded with hollow points, usually Federal Hydra-Shok.
I've been known to go about without a spare magazine. I know I should carry a spare, but I don't always.
(15+1 in the .40 and no malfunction of any kind in the last 1200 rounds or so with that gun, puts the spare mag on the "nice to have but probably not absolutely necessary" list.)
If I'm carrying one or more spare mags, then one of them is loaded with full metal jacket ammo.
I figure that in the unlikely event that I'm in a gunfight (that we here try to prepare for and hope never happens), and even more unlikely event that it lasts long enough to need a reload, whoever I'm shooting at may well be behind cover by that time and I may want the extra penetration. (Figuring that by that time, any innocent bystanders, that could be further endangered by overpenetration, will have cleared the area or be flat on the floor.)
I'm not telling anyone else to do it my way. I'm just stating what I carry and my thinking behind it.

If you are worried about the vest, practice tactics instead of worrying about the ammo. The ammo choice won't make much different for a vest. The tactics are called a failure drill or a Mozambique drill. The old version was two tot he chest and one to the head. The original Mozambique was two to the chest, one to the head, and one to the hips (or so I was told).

Most police now are practicing failure drills as two shots to the center of mass, then aiming for the pelvic girdle (hips). A shot to the pelvic girdle is more likely to stop or slow the attacker than any not immediately fatal shot. It is also much easier to shoot the pelvic girdle than the head because it moves less as the person is walking or running and is larger than the head.

I am of the opinion that good tactics is usually a better choice than worrying about the weapon or ammo. There is very little effective difference in good quality equipment (just make sure you do have good quality), even in the different calibers. Whether you like Glock or 1911, JHP or FMJ, 9mm or .45acp, the tactics and shot placement are almost always going to be the determining factor, IMO. the rest is personal choice though it MIGHT make a slight difference.

I was not thinking in terms of tactics, but that is an excellent point srothstein. I think you are correct. I am going to approach it from that angle. Thanks!

I don't think the risk of running into an armored attacker is as great as the risk of over penetration when you use ball ammo against a non-armored attacker.

If I was carrying a .380 which has less punch, then I might think about ball.

I too, was thinking of the hips or thighs. You might shatter a hip or femur or even hit that femoral artery. If you can disable them from chasing after you there might might be a better chance of retreating to safety.

I also like the rifle idea. I wonder how my Henry .44 mag would stand up to the average vest?

I have heard before the suggestion that you should aim for the belly button rather than the chest or heart. Depending on the situation, a shot to the crotch, hip, or stomach is likely to cause an attacker to think about other things than chasing you or continuing an attack. I guess if you are cornered, it matters little since you should shoot until you run dry, but if you intend to shoot and run like hell, a hit lower might be better. The other reason is that with revolvers and some other guns, shooting high is a problem for many shooters. Aiming lower might give you a better shot at a hit. I originally heard that suggestion directed toward women carrying, but it makes sense for anyone at least in some situations. I guess everyone needs to practice with unaimed shooting and see where they tend to hit.

As far as ball ammo, I have heard people mention that in big calibers like 45, ball ammo is better, but I just don't know. HP ammo to me is going to be best in most situations I run into.

MechAg94 wrote: I guess everyone needs to practice with unaimed shooting and see where they tend to hit.

that's how i practice 90% of the time at the range .
its one thing to take your time while carefully aligning your sights , and another to practice "real world" shooting .

For some 80 years, the U.S. military issued 1911 pistols, Thompson SMG's, M-3 SMG's, et al that fired .45 acp 230 grain FMJ bullets for wartime combat. The U.S. prevailed in almost all of those conflicts over that timespan. A hit with a 230 gr. FMJ is hard to shake off...I think.

Remember this: bullet makers like the auto industry, etc. must keep coming up with something new to create new sales. , Did I really say that?

RHENRIKSEN wrote:
If I was carrying a .380 which has less punch, then I might think about ball.

this makes sense to me . especially during cooler weather when people have on thicker clothing .

I think most people spend too much time worrying about what type of ammo to carry. The most important thing is that your weapon functions reliably every time with whatever ammo you use. Except for those once in a million type situations, just about anything, even a .22 long rifle round will do the job of "stopping" the threat.

as for the US military using FMJ... I believe that's due to international law which effectively makes hollow point bullets illegal on the "civilized" battlefield.

Now, as to carrying ball ammo in a handgun....yep, I have been known to carry nothing but fmj in a 32 acp, and either all fmj or alternating fmj-jhp in a 380. I don't consider overpenetration an issue with either of those. But with modern 9mm and up, penetration isn't normally limited, instead can be an issue. Expanding rounds will obviously do more soft tissue damage, as well as limit the chance of over-penetration.

Admittedly, there are a few documented cases of a perpetrator of violence being decked out in body armor, they are rare. One prime example would be the incident at the Tyler Courthouse a few years ago. One of the victims died while reloading his 45 that he had emptied c.o.m. at the rifle toting perp. Since the gentleman with the .45 was well trained in it's use, I would imagine he was very capable of center of mass hits. I never heard how many torso bruises the perp received before his "none too soon" demise, but from the number of rounds fired, it had to be several.

surv

srothstein wrote:...practice tactics instead of worrying about the ammo. The ammo choice won't make much different for a vest. The tactics are called a failure drill or a Mozambique drill. The old version was two tot he chest and one to the head. The original Mozambique was two to the chest, one to the head, and one to the hips (or so I was told).

Most police now are practicing failure drills as two shots to the center of mass, then aiming for the pelvic girdle (hips). A shot to the pelvic girdle is more likely to stop or slow the attacker than any not immediately fatal shot. It is also much easier to shoot the pelvic girdle than the head because it moves less as the person is walking or running and is larger than the head.

I am of the opinion that good tactics is usually a better choice than worrying about the weapon or ammo. There is very little effective difference in good quality equipment (just make sure you do have good quality), even in the different calibers. Whether you like Glock or 1911, JHP or FMJ, 9mm or .45acp, the tactics and shot placement are almost always going to be the determining factor, IMO. the rest is personal choice though it MIGHT make a slight difference.

totally! Tactics trumps caliber! Now, having said that , if I can get an edge using the laws of physics (you can back me up Lonewolf ) then I will use larger mass, higher velocity, or a comfortable combination of the two.

Carry what you can comfortably shoot and control, and place your shots. One of Jeff Cooper's students, Mike Rousseau, is credited with the Mozambique Drill. Cooper taught 2 shot COM and when Rousseau used this technique in Mozambique, he still had BG walking towards him with and AK-47. He quickly assessed the need for a third shot and placed it in the head area. Cooper reassessed and re-instructed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill

http://www.thegunzone.com/lore.html

karder wrote:Currently I am carrying a Colt Commander .45, which feeds everything I have tried in it. I am carrying JHP in the first clip for standard self-defense. I am then carrying two spare clips which I am loading with FMJ. I understand that if I have a shooter wearing a NIJ Type IIIA vest, FMJ won't likely penetrate, but still may provide more shock. Am I way off base here with my ammo choice? Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Way off base?.... I think not. Put two in the chest. If BG still standing, put one in the eye/nose triangle. BG still standing, empty the .45 in the chest/neck/head/pelvic girdle/foot/knee cap (where ever you can hit) then turn and run! And pray!

And BTW...Mozambique Drill- not PC. Failure Drill - is PC.

BTW karder...my carry is my Commander and I love it. You are correct, it eats anything and cries for more! I load with 185 JHP Sabers or 230 JHP Dots. No probs! I practice double taps (not PC) and failure drills (PC) every chance I get at the range. Sometimes the range master will hear me and "frown" upon me but if the range is not crowded he doesn't tell me to stop.