RHENRIKSEN wrote:The confusion on this and other aspects of Texas (and other states'!) CHL laws is understandable. It's very frustrating - read one paragraph and it says, plain as day, that CC in churches is not allowed. Period. End of paragraph.
THEN... some ways further along the page (or perhaps even a following page), if you're still awake, there is the added language from a subsequent legislative session that says churches have to post a 30.06 like everyone else to prohibit carry.
You're right, the placement of the requirement to post a sign makes it easy to miss, if you don't read all of TPC §46.035. You are also correct that it would be clearer had the sign requirement been put in the same subsection with the prohibition. However, we could never have gotten it passed, so we buried it where no one would realize what was happening. The result is somewhat confusing, but now we can carry in most churches, hospitals, nursing homes and meetings of governmental entities.
Chas.
Chas.
Thanks, that makes me feel much better - knowing there was a rational reason for it!
I'll quit carrying a gun when they make murder and armed robbery illegal
Houston Technology Consulting
soup-to-nuts IT infrastructure design, deployment, and support for SMBs
i don't have to!(well most of the time). I go to church where i know one of the churchgoer is an off duty police officer. most of the time he's there cause he is one of the ushers. i feel pretty good when he's around.
can2boy wrote:i don't have to!(well most of the time). I go to church where i know one of the churchgoer is an off duty police officer. most of the time he's there cause he is one of the ushers. i feel pretty good when he's around.
And what will you do if there is actually an active shooter situation in your church, and the BG takes out the LEO/usher? Where's your gun then? At home, or on your hip?
It is one thing to decide not to carry because you don't want to carry. That is fine. It's not a decision with which I would agree, but it is your decision. But it is, IMHO, foolish to not carry because you're going to depend on somebody else having a gun for your own safety. What if your cop friend decided not to carry that day? What if, like I said above, he gets taken out? What if it is your loved ones getting shot at, and not somebody else?
What it boils down to is, if you are deciding to leave your gun at home when you go to church because you are depending on an off-duty LEO to have his gun on him, then why even carry a gun on the street at all? Why not just depend on LEOs on the street to protect you? Why bother getting a CHL at all?
My wife has a CHL and she packs heat. And if we are going somewhere together, she still packs heat. Why? Just read what's above. And for the same reasons, I don't leave my gun at home just because I think she's carrying. A couple of times, on week days, she has actually forgotten to put her gun in her purse before leaving the house. What if we were leaving together, and I left my gun at home because I was depending on her to have hers, and she forgot? If the solid waste hits the rotating oscillator, we are hosed.
Nope, that just doesn't work for me.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
The Annoyed Man wrote:A number of us here CCW on stage as pastors or worship leaders. Although it felt funny the first time I did it (it was like a first time Wally Walk turned up to eleven), I don't even think about it anymore.
I know right .... Wally walk is "Is anyone looking at me, it feels like they are"
But that is a "I'm on stage or in the pulpit, I KNOW EVERYONE is looking at me ..."
And ... no one notices
I'm no lawyer
"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"
so annoyed, annoyedman, wait a minute i thought we are talking about carrying @ church where it is "illegal" by the way my church has the 30.06 sign posted. so are you actually telling me to break the law?
can2boy wrote:so annoyed, annoyedman, wait a minute i thought we are talking about carrying @ church where it is "illegal" by the way my church has the 30.06 sign posted. so are you actually telling me to break the law?
Please. Where did you state that your church was posted 30.06? No, I am not advising you to break the law. But neither can you expect me not to post what I posted if you withheld that information.
Furthermore, church carry is NOT illegal. The default is that church carry IS legal, and a church must post a 30.06 sign to prevent it. Go back and reread the entire thread, and reread your CHL handbook before you jump on me about that.
Of course, that 30.06 sign is not going to stop an active shooter from walking in and hosing the place down with an AK. Remember that people with criminal intent don't give a hoot about that sign. Personally, I wouldn't attend a church that didn't want its members to be able to protect themselves. But that's just me...
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
Our church decided NOT to put up the 30.06 sign, and would probably help finance any Deacon who wanted a CHL that doesn't already have one (all but one do and carry, along with retired LEO parishners and preachers in our church). Quite a few ladies are also CHLs and armed at our Baptist church.
I'd change churches or at a minimum talk to the church leaders and ask what security they are providing.I just can't imagine any Pastor electing to not care for his sheep and himself. There are too many nuts who want to "Smite the Shepherd" and watch the sheep scatter. [Vague reference to Zech 13:7 (Matt 26:31; Mark 14:27) and nuts thinking they are an instrument of God or something]
Partial list of church shootings:
2010, Jan 23 -- Woman killed at church parking lot, at St. Dominic Church in Youngstown, Ohio.
Feb 15, 2010 ... Two teenagers were injured in a US church shooting. Three hooded gunmen entered a San Francisco bay area church and one opened fire ... A brazen shooting inside a Calif. Church injured two people on Sunday. The three gunmen were able to get away.
February 14, 2010 - Richmond, California - Three hooded men
walk into Gethsemane Church of God in Christ and opened
fire and then fled the scene, as the singing of the choir
was replaced by frightened screams. The two victims, a 14-
year-old boy and a 19-year-old man, were hospitalized.
2009, Dec 11 -- Man killed at funeral services being held at the New Hope Missionary Baptist Church in Portland, Oregon.
March 8, 2009 - Maryville, Illinois - Suspect Terry Joe
Sedlacek, 27, of Troy, walks into the First Baptist Church,
and shoots pastor Fred Winters dead, point blank. Several
church members are injured by a knife in the struggle to
capture after the attack, The suspect also had stabbed
himself, but survived, when his gun jams.Monday, March 09, 2009 Pastor Killed, 2 Hurt in Illinois Church Shooting, Senior Pastor Fred Winters was preaching during the 8:15 am service when a man entered the church,
2008, Nov 23 -- Multiple people killed when a husband crossed the country to kill his wife, at the St. Thomas Syrian Orthodox Knanaya Church, in Clifton, NJ.
July 27, 2008 - Knoxville, Tennessee - A gunman opens fire
in a church during a youth performance, killing two people
and injuring seven. On July 27, 2008, a politically motivated fatal shooting took place at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee,
2008, Mar 21 -- Police investigators search for a suspect and motive in a shooting that left two people wounded outside a Suitland, Maryland church where the victims had been attending Bible study.
Dec. 9, 2007 - Colorado - Three people are killed and five
wounded in two shooting rampages, one at a missionary
school in suburban Denver and one at a church in Colorado
Springs. The gunman in the second incident is killed by a
guard.
6 Shot At New Life Church; Gunman, 2 Churchgoers Dead - Denver ...Dec 9, 2007 ... The security team at New Life had been increased
2007, Nov 4 -- Gunfire erupts at Dorchester's Holy Tabernacle Church in Boston, injuring one.
Aug. 12, 2007 - Missouri - First Congregational Church (Micronesian) - Pastor and 2 Worshipers Killed - shooter's name yet to be released.
Colorado Church Gunman Had Grudge Against Christian Group, Cops ...About 7000 people were in and around the church the time of the shooting, Boyd said. Security had been beefed up after the shootings
May 20, 2007 - Moscow, Idaho - A standoff between police
and a suspect in the shootings of three people in a
Presbyterian Church ended with three dead, including one
police officer.
Aug. 12, 2007 - Neosho, Missouri - First Congregational
Church - 3 killed - Eiken Elam Saimon shot and killed the
pastor and two deacons and wounded five others.
2007, Mar 11 -- Woman shot and killed by estranged husband while walking into church, at Acts Full Gospel Church in Oakland, CA.
2006, Oct 2 -- Although not at a church building, the attack in Lancaster County, Pa., by a gunman who killed five girls and then himself at an Amish school targeted a religious site.
June 05, 2006 When the congregation of Wedgwood Baptist church, in Texas, sat down in preparation for evening services the night of Sept 15, 1999, quite likely the last thing running through anyone's mind was that a man would enter the building and shoot at least 45 bullets from a nine-millimeter semi-automatic handgun inside the sanctuary. Probably none of the 7 persons shot and killed thought to himself earlier that day, "Today is the last day of my earthly life."
May 21, 2006 - Louisiana - Jesus Christ Church - 4 Killed including Shooter's Wife - Anthony Bell May 21, 2006 - Baton Rouge, Louisiana - The Ministry of
Jesus Christ Church - 4 killed - The four at the church who
were shot were members of Erica Bell's family; she was
abducted and murdered elsewhere; Bell's mother, church
pastor Claudia Brown, was seriously wounded - Anthony Bell,
25, was the shooter.
Feb. 26, 2006 - Michigan - Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church - 2 People Killed - Kevin L. Collins, who reportedly went to the church looking for his girlfriend, later killed himself.
Feb. 26, 2006 - Detroit, Michigan - Zion Hope Missionary
Baptist Church - 2 killed + shooter - Kevin L. Collins, who
reportedly went to the church looking for his girlfriend,
later killed himself.
March 12, 2005 - Wisconsin - Living Church of God (Evangelical group) - 7 Churchgoers Killed - Terry Ratzmann concluded by killing himself. March 12, 2005 - Brookfield, Wisconsin - Living Church of
God - 7 killed + shooter - Terry Ratzmann opened fire on
the congregation, killing seven and wounding four before
taking his own life
July 30, 2005 - New York - World Changers Church International - Air Force Staff Sgt. John Givens was shot 5 times by a police officer after charging the officer, following violent behavior.
April 9, 2005 - College Park, Georgia - A 27-year-old
airman died after being shot at a church, where he had once
worked as a security guard.
July 30, 2005 - College Park, Georgia - World Changers
Church International - shooter killed - Air Force Staff
Sgt. John Givens was shot five times by a police officer
after charging the officer, following violent behavior.
Dec. 17, 2004, Garden Grove, Calif.: A veteran musician at
the Crystal Cathedral shoots himself to death after a nine
-hour standoff.
Oct. 5, 2003 - Atlanta, Georgia - Turner Monumental AME
Church - 2 killed + shooter - Shelia Wilson walked into the
church while preparations are being made for service and
shot the pastor, her mother and then herself.
June 10, 2002 - Conception, Missouri - Benedictine
monastery - 2 killed + shooter - Lloyd Robert Jeffress shot
four monks in the monastery killing two and wounding two,
before killing himself.
March 12, 2002 - Lynbrook, New York - Our Lady of Peace
Catholic Church - 2 killed - Peter Troy, a former mental
patient, opens fire during Mass, killing the priest and a
parishioner. He later receives a life sentence.
May 18, 2001 - Hopkinsville, Kentucky - Greater Oak
Missionary Baptist Church - 2 killed - Frederick Radford
stood up in the middle of a revival service and began
shooting at his estranged wife, Nicole Radford, killing her
and a woman trying to help her.
2000, Nov 1 -- The wife of a minister at the Eagle Heights Baptist Church & Christian School, in Kansas City, MO, decided to kill her daughter (for "rebelliousness") and then herself.
Sept. 15, 1999 - Fort Worth, Texas - Wedgewood Baptist
Church - 7 killed + shooter - Larry Gene Ashbrook shot dead
seven people and injured a further seven at a concert by
Christian rock group Forty Days in Fort Worth, Texas before
killing himself.
1999, Jul 4 -- One person killed in a shooting at the Koren United Methodist Church in Bloomington, IN.
April 15, 1999 - Salt Lake City, Utah - LDS Church Family
History Library - 2 killed + shooter - Sergei Babarin, 70,
with a history of mental illness, entered the library,
killed two people and wounded four others before he was
gunned down by police.
1999, Mar 11 -- Three killed and four injured as a family dispute erupts at the New St. John Fellowship Baptist Church in Gonzales, LA.
... and on, and on.
LOTS more, just in the USA if you want to look for them.
I'd have a serious talk with the church leaders about that sign .
I'm no lawyer
"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"
The Annoyed Man wrote:A number of us here CCW on stage as pastors or worship leaders. Although it felt funny the first time I did it (it was like a first time Wally Walk turned up to eleven), I don't even think about it anymore.
One of the first times I got up on stage to talk about my mission I was very conscious of the gun on my hip, and later my wife told me that I was printing to a level that she would notice, but she has a practiced eye so she would be more likely to notice, no one ever commented.
I have gotten made during hugs a few times, and I swear one of our ladies was patting me down once, but the only thing that ever really gave me pause was that our church met in a restaurant/bar and I had to check for a 51% sign before attending worship.
Catholic, and will carry at the next mass. (just go the CHL today...wooohooo)
I intend to carry at any time that it is legal to carry. Period. You never know when things are going to get sketchy, and I wan't my pound of protection close. Besides, Zombies could come at any time...you must be prepared.
I go shooting with my priests, so there are no 30.06 signs, and probably never will be. Once my priest found out how many people carry in our church he was suprised. Pleasantly suprised.
Where did you state that your church was posted 30.06? No, I am not advising you to break the law. But neither can you expect me not to post what I posted if you withheld that information.
