Carry at church

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Carry at church

Postby SecedeTX » Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:29 am

I was reading through a number of posts where people are talking about carrying at church. I thought that a church was one of the places included that you are never allowed to carry in. I seem to remember hearing this from my CHL class, but can't be sure.

My priests would not care one way or another. I am shooting clays with one of them this morning.
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Re: Carry at church

Postby JNMAR » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:16 am

It appears that way if you, like me, tend to stop reading too soon...the law includes churches, synagogues, and other places of worship as places you can't carry but if you keep reading, near the bottom of that section, you will learn that you're not excluded from carry unless it's properly 30.06 posted or you receive verbal or written notice from someone who appears to be in authority at that place. Who knows why the law was written that way. If I had to guess, it was put in to appease one or some legislators then later excluded if it's not signed properly because someone knew they were knotheads and wouldn't read it all the way to the bottom and keep up with what the different subsection references actually referred to. But again, who knows.

I know, shame on me for being too lazy to post a link to the actual law...I need more coffee.
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Re: Carry at church

Postby The Annoyed Man » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:26 am

JNMAR is correct. Although I'm not perfectly versed in the history of Texas CHL law, when it was first implemented there were a number of places one could not carry, such as places of worship. Over the years the law has been amended. The 30.06 requirement to prevent church carry is one such example of an amendment. More recently the law has been amended to remove the penalty of prosecution for failure to present an LEO with one's CHL while carrying. You are still required to show it; you just can't be prosecuted for failing to do so. Another recent change is the addition that it is now a defense to prosecution if you unknowingly carry into a 51% establishment and there was no sign prominently displayed informing you that it is that kind of establishment. I'm sure I don't have the correct wording here, but you get the gist of what I'm saying.
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Re: Carry at church

Postby SecedeTX » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:50 am

Thanks gents. I just pulled out the book with rules. Not being a lawyer, the wording is sketchy but I see what you are saying.

My priests are pro gun.

Funny story. Our church is located in a big city, but it is in a very urban area with lots of acerage. One of our priests is not from the US, and saw a number of turtle doves. He grabbed the .22 rifle with scope and "harvested" a few. Half an hour later the local pd department pulled up asking if they had heard any shots fired. The other priest said no, while the forign born priest was frying up turtle dove breasts in butter in the kitchen.

I bought him a nice pellet gun the next week.
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Re: Carry at church

Postby JNMAR » Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:58 am

Just as a side note but very related:

Remember concealed means concealed and that includes don't tell or talk about it. I work for a minister who speaks at various churches around the country and has his CHL and often if not always carries. A while back, he asked two different LEO's at two different churches about church carry and both of them were emphatic in saying that church carry was illegal. He asked one of the preachers who has a CHL and he said something like he didn't care he was going to anyway. He spoke with a CHL instructor who told him it was legal if not posted, etc but didn't cite the law per se. When he talked to me about it I printed the written law and together went over each section, only then was he convinced that churches were not excluded. I'm saying all of that just to remind us that there are some, even those who I think we would agree should know but don't and never the less believe they do and are in a position to really mess up your Sunday afternoon if they're so minded.
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Re: Carry at church

Postby cougartex » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:23 am

:iagree: :txflag:
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Re: Carry at church

Postby RHenriksen » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:44 am

The confusion on this and other aspects of Texas (and other states'!) CHL laws is understandable. It's very frustrating - read one paragraph and it says, plain as day, that CC in churches is not allowed. Period. End of paragraph.

THEN... some ways further along the page (or perhaps even a following page), if you're still awake, there is the added language from a subsequent legislative session that says churches have to post a 30.06 like everyone else to prohibit carry.

WHY the legislature didn't simply remove 'churches' from the list of places where carry is prohibitive, I don't know.

Say... I'm going to post in the 'CHL reform' thread about a possible bill for TSRA to suggest for the upcoming legislative session - a simple (hah!) language cleanup. Not *changing* the statutes, but clarifying them. There's a lot of confusion by lay people and LEOs alike because of the tortured language in the statutes.
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Re: Carry at church

Postby JNMAR » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:07 am

I agree, in a perfect world. But all of the, "can of worms" and "Pandora's Box" euphemisms I've ever heard pop into my mind. Can you imagine all of the debates, votes, and whatever else they spend their time doing just in order to do that? I don't know enough about all of the procedures involved in writing and making laws but my thoughts tell me to leave well enough alone.
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Re: Carry at church

Postby The Annoyed Man » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:13 am

RHENRIKSEN wrote:The confusion on this and other aspects of Texas (and other states'!) CHL laws is understandable. It's very frustrating - read one paragraph and it says, plain as day, that CC in churches is not allowed. Period. End of paragraph.

THEN... some ways further along the page (or perhaps even a following page), if you're still awake, there is the added language from a subsequent legislative session that says churches have to post a 30.06 like everyone else to prohibit carry.

WHY the legislature didn't simply remove 'churches' from the list of places where carry is prohibitive, I don't know.

Say... I'm going to post in the 'CHL reform' thread about a possible bill for TSRA to suggest for the upcoming legislative session - a simple (hah!) language cleanup. Not *changing* the statutes, but clarifying them. There's a lot of confusion by lay people and LEOs alike because of the tortured language in the statutes.

We don't remove anything from the Constitution either. We amend it, which is why we have one guaranteeing the RKBA in the first place. Then there are amendments which essentially repeal (but do not remove) previous amendments, such as those which began and ended prohibition. The advantage to this message is that we have a written history of where we've been, and how we got to where we are, that cannot be subject to revisionism... ...at least not by thinking people.
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Re: Carry at church

Postby Bennies » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:57 am

I always carry at church. For a while I thought I was the only one till I was talking to a friend. Since he knew I was a chl and he knew I was friendly to the practice he told me we had a whole group of guys who carried. He said the church leadership was in the loop and approved. I never really talk about it with anyone else in church at all. Some in my small group would definently take issue. So there is just us few who know and we definently do not advertise about church carry.
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Re: Carry at church

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:08 pm

RHENRIKSEN wrote:The confusion on this and other aspects of Texas (and other states'!) CHL laws is understandable. It's very frustrating - read one paragraph and it says, plain as day, that CC in churches is not allowed. Period. End of paragraph.

THEN... some ways further along the page (or perhaps even a following page), if you're still awake, there is the added language from a subsequent legislative session that says churches have to post a 30.06 like everyone else to prohibit carry.

WHY the legislature didn't simply remove 'churches' from the list of places where carry is prohibitive, I don't know.

Say... I'm going to post in the 'CHL reform' thread about a possible bill for TSRA to suggest for the upcoming legislative session - a simple (hah!) language cleanup. Not *changing* the statutes, but clarifying them. There's a lot of confusion by lay people and LEOs alike because of the tortured language in the statutes.

You're right, the placement of the requirement to post a sign makes it easy to miss, if you don't read all of TPC §46.035. You are also correct that it would be clearer had the sign requirement been put in the same subsection with the prohibition. However, we could never have gotten it passed, so we buried it where no one would realize what was happening. The result is somewhat confusing, but now we can carry in most churches, hospitals, nursing homes and meetings of governmental entities.

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Re: Carry at church

Postby longtooth » Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:23 pm

:hurry: And this Preacher thanks yall for it. :clapping:
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Re: Carry at church

Postby SecedeTX » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:43 pm

Praise the Lord, pass the ammo? :woohoo
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Re: Carry at church

Postby AggieMM » Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:37 pm

Like mentioned above, churches must post 30.06 to prevent CHL'ers from carrying. Most people stop reading the government code at (b), but you can't forget (i)..... :smile:

Penal Code - Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
    (1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
    (2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
    (3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
    (4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
    (5) in an amusement park; or
    (6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
[...]

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.


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Re: Carry at church

Postby The Annoyed Man » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:30 am

A number of us here CCW on stage as pastors or worship leaders. Although it felt funny the first time I did it (it was like a first time Wally Walk turned up to eleven), I don't even think about it anymore.
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