Pace Bend Park

[specops72]

I am trying to find out whether or not it is OK to carry concealed in Pace Bend Park with a valid Texas CHL......

I was under the impression that SB535 allowed an exemption for LCRA Parks, but the Supervisor of Pace Bend Park states that "the park is not LCRA property (this goes completely against what the LCRA website states), it is Travis County property therefore SB535 does not apply and since it is a county park, firearms are prohibited even with a CHL".

At this point I am pretty confused and any information would be greatly appreciated.....thanks, Todd

[KFP]

It appears to be a Travis county park, so long as it is not COE property you are legal carrying there. Make sure to stop by the Supervisor's office and drop off a copy of Texas LGC 229.001.

Carry on!

[specops72]

KPF.....Thanks for the response..

This morning I thought I would attempt to get some clarification from Dps....they stated that they can not interpret the law, carry at your own risk, and it would be best to seek the advice of an attorney.

Next I called Lcra....The park property is owned by LCRA, although it is operated by Travis County. So, although LCRA allows the carry of concealed firearms by a CHL holder on their property and waterways, they defer the regulation of the property to Travis County Parks since they are the ones that operate it.

Next I called Travis County Parks.....They have no one in the Austin office that could give an answer wheter or not it is OK to carry in their Parks.....They reffered me to the Travis County park Rangers office.

Called the Travis County park Rangers office.....no one available to answer the question, but they said they would have the Ranger Supervisor call me later today.....





I am beginning to get the feeling that wether or not it is legal to carry concealed in the park....that if you were carrying and happened to be asked for ID, while carrying, by a Sherriff, Game Warden, or Park ranger while on the property, you may become a test case for the law.

[A-R]

I don't see how/why you'd be a test case. City/county parks are not allowed to ban legally carried firearms.

See Texas Penal Code Section 1.08

Sec. 1.08. PREEMPTION. No governmental subdivision or agency may enact or enforce a law that makes any conduct covered by this code an offense subject to a criminal penalty. This section shall apply only as long as the law governing the conduct proscribed by this code is legally enforceable.

If you're not prohibited from carrying in this park by superceding Federal law, and state law does not ban carry in this park. Then neither Travis County nor LCRA has the legal authority to ban legal carry in this park.

I AM NOT A LAWYER. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE.

This is just the way things have been explained to me. It's worth what you paid for it.

[specops72]

Well to possibly confuse the issue a little more, I called the Travis county Sheriffs office in attempts to get some clarification.....spoke to a detective.

According to the detective, he sees nothing "in the books" that would allow Travis County to prohibit CHL holders from lawfully carrying in Travis county Parks. He also said that if he were to respond to an indecent involving a CHL, that unless the park is properly posted 30.06, he would not find it as an offense.

Additionally, since the property is owned by LCRA, and SB535 creates an exemption for CHL holders to carry on their property, that may trump the Travis county Parks "rule".

And lastly, which is important, he could not verify that Travis County parks Dept. doesn't have the authority to not allow CHL holders to carry in all their county parks.

His recommendation was to seek legal advise on the matter.

Still confused....no clear answer yet..

[ralewis]

Several years ago I had a question about carry on Lake Travis while in my boat. I sent an email to the LCRA security contact on their web site, and the individual sent me a canned response that said something like carry on LCRA and in Travis County parks is fine with a CHL. I can't find the email, but I'll keep looking and post.

I also asked an Parks Dept officer on a boat a few years ago (wasn't carrying at the time) what his understanding was, and he stated something similar. I carry the printed email on my boat in the event there is any confusion, but the boat is at the marina so i can't scan/post.

Bottom line though is it seems to me after talking to 2 persons (LCRA and Parks officer) it's totally ok to carry on the lake and park land.

[specops72]

I am not sure if this has been amended or changed, but it would seem that according to this opinion, the county could restrict CHL holders from carrying if the proper signage was in place.

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opi ... jc0325.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ScottDLS]

I am not sure if this has been amended or changed, but it would seem that according to this opinion, the county could restrict CHL holders from carrying if the proper signage was in place.

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opi ... jc0325.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The language in 30.06 was changed (I think in 2003) to add:

PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN, (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
...
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property
on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

[RPB]

A county is a subdivision of the State for governmental purposes.
The OAG opinion was in 2001; 30.06 changed to add exception in about 2003; then in 2007 SB 535 was in effect

SB 535 (effective 9/1/07 )

(e) A state agency, including the department, the
Department of Public Safety, and the Lower Colorado River
Authority, may not adopt a rule that prohibits a person who
possesses a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
Government Code, from entering or crossing the land of the Lower
Colorado River Authority while:
(1) possessing a concealed handgun of the same
category as a handgun the person is licensed to carry; or
(2) under circumstances in which the person would be
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9, Penal Code,
shooting a handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is
licensed to carry.
-------

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... tute07.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SB 535 Carrying on LCRA Property
• Creates exemption for CHL holders from Parks and Wildlife Code prohibition against hunting with, possessing, or shooting a firearm on the land of the Lower Colorado River Authority
• Prohibits any state agency from adopting a rule that would prohibit a CHL holder from entering or crossing the land of the Lower Colorado River Authority under certain circumstances
Amends Section 62.082, Parks and Wildlife Code, as follows:
Section 62.082 Target Ranges, Managed Hunts, and other Exceptions; Rules.
(d) Section 62.081 does not apply to: (1) an employee of the Lower Colorado River Authority; (2) a person authorized to hunt under Subsection (c); (3) a peace officer as defined by Article 2.12, Code of Criminal Procedure; or (4) a person who:
(A) possess a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is carrying; or
(B) under circumstances in which the person would be justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9, Penal Code, shoots a handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(e) A state agency, including the department, the Department of Public Safety, and the Lower Colorado River Authority, may not adopt a rule that prohibits a person who possesses a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, from entering or crossing the land of the Lower Colorado River Authority while:
(1) possessing a concealed handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is licensed to carry; or
(2) under circumstances in which the person would be justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9, Penal Code, shooting a handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is licensed to carry

---------
Possession of Handgun by a CHL on LCRA Property • SB 535“CHL coverage improvement” -- Bureaucrats cannot deny licensees

Section 62.081 of the Parks & Wildlife Code generally prohibits the possession or discharge of firearms on Lower Colorado River Authority (LCRA) property, with a few exceptions. Clarification was necessary to make it clear that the legal possession of a handgun by a CHL on LCRA property, and discharge of a handgun by a CHL for lawful self-defense purposes, is legal. Prior efforts to accomplish this with SB 501 in 2003 and subsequent administrative rules were not sufficient to restrain “the proper authorities.”
Passed 5/17/07, Effective date 9/1/07.
======================================

In a nutshell, if it's a PARK, and not USACE property, nor otherwise prohibited (school sporting event, governmental meeting and barbeque with appropriate sign, etc) I'd be armed.

I live close to there, notice all the cars off to the side of the road and in the parks taking pictures ...
Look at the pretty bluebonnets children
Chambered round is snakeshot/CCI shotshell ... magazine with hollowpoints.

Personally, I go a LOT to LCRA parks Travis/Burnet County parks, City Parks in all cities around Marble Falls, Llano, Lampasas, Burnet etc also Inks Lake and Colorado Bend State Park, all armed.... I do NOT go to Granger, Georgetown, Stillhouse or any US Army Corps of Engineers property where we are not welcome.

[specops72]

Does anything change if the property is leased to travis county?

Or if the Park is posted with the correct 30.06 signage? Is a county even allowed to post signage in the first place? (it would seem that they aren't...if I'm reading / understanding correctly)

[Keith B]

Does anything change if the property is leased to travis county?

Or if the Park is posted with the correct 30.06 signage? Is a county even allowed to post signage in the first place? (it would seem that they aren't...if I'm reading / understanding correctly)

No. Carry in city, county or state owned parks is legal per the statte statutes. The governmental agency cannot override the state law.

[KFP]

I learned what the LCRA is now!

LGC 229.001 is below as well - bottom line is that you're legal to carry.

229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES. (a) A municipality may
not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership,
keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms,
ammunition, or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a
municipality has under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed
for personal or national defense, law enforcement, or another
lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the
limits of the municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a
business, or uses at a business under the municipality's fire code,
zoning ordinance, or land-use regulations as long as the code,
ordinance, or regulations are not used to circumvent the intent of
Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5) of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an
insurrection, riot, or natural disaster if the municipality finds
the regulations necessary to protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of
explosives to protect public health and safety, except that 25
pounds or less of black powder for each private residence and 50
pounds or less of black powder for each retail dealer are not
subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person
other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or
other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official
political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or
professional athletic event.
(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not
apply if the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area
designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting
event and the firearm is of the type commonly used in the activity.

[RPB]

Does anything change if the property is leased to travis county?

Or if the Park is posted with the correct 30.06 signage? Is a county even allowed to post signage in the first place? (it would seem that they aren't...if I'm reading / understanding correctly)

No. Carry in city, county or state owned parks is legal per the statte statutes. The governmental agency cannot override the state law.

Absolutly Right

In a nutshell, LCRA property, even if leased as a city park/county park etc is ok to carry.


The city/county/state can't post an enforceable 30.06 on a lake/park etc,

And this I'm still befuzzled, since there are water intakes on the lakes, but none posted that I've seen, (structures out in the water in the lake) except they might at the electrical power plant/on the dam/water intake... water intake and pump station etc ("Critical infrastructure facility") of LCRA property. under 30.05(b)(7) but see 30.05(f)

Some of those water intake etc areas are decent fish attractors lie a warm water outlet in the winter where warmer water is pumped from one lake to another etc.

They do have some prohibited areas where no one is supposed to go, armed or not, under 30.05 for power plants etc.("Critical infrastructure facility")
Here are some "no trespassing" signs lol (CONTROLLLED AREA MARKERS) for the infrastructure areas on the water, though I'm sure others are on land at the power plants/ water pumping stations and electrical service for them etc. http://www.lcra.org/water/safety/boating/markers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LCRA website (needs updating, but apparently they are making effort to update it)
http://www.lcra.org/parks/regulations.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
FIREARMS, HUNTING AND TRAPPING
The transportation, possession or use of firearms, or any other type of weapon, and any and all types of hunting on LCRA land or LCRA water are illegal under state law and are strictly prohibited. No person shall place poisons or mechanical devices such as traps and snares on LCRA land.
BUT SEE

http://www.lcra.org/parks/faq.html#nineteen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Can I take a gun into an LCRA park if I have a gun permit?
Registered, concealed handguns are permissible in LCRA parks IF the person in possession of the concealed handgun has a valid concealed handgun holder permit issued by the State of Texas.

(Registered handgun?)(needs updating, but apparently they are making effort to update it)


I like this one ... "PLEASE DO NOT PET THE SNAKES !!!"
Do your parks have poisonous snakes? What should I do if I see one?
LCRA parks provide the opportunity to see a variety of wildlife including snakes, both non-venomous and venomous varieties. Snakes are protected just like all other wildlife found in LCRA’s parks and are to be seen but not touched.
If you encounter a snake, safely vacate the area and DO NOT attempt to touch the animal. Usually, it will leave the area on its own. If you encounter a snake that will not leave a public area of a park, call the LCRA Ranger Dispatch at 1-866-527-2267.