Post-incident survival - in your own home

[baldeagle]

There's been a lot of discussion in the IFF thread as well as the Costco thread about surviving an encounter with the police. The purpose of this thread is to discuss possible protocols for surviving the aftermath of a deadly force encounter. For purposes of this discussion, we're going to assume that you have drawn your gun and fired it and a single BG is disabled but not dead. There are no other BGs. You have the BG at gunpoint, and you have just called 911.

What should you say? Is there a certain order that you should give the operator information? Is it safe to assume that no neighbor has already called 911 and reported shots fired? What information is absolutely vital to give to 911? What is less important? For those who are LEO, what information would you most like to have? Description? Location inside the house? Presence of gun trained on BG? GG's position relative to the entrance?

[The Annoyed Man]

I'm not sure what typical PD protocols are like in that kind of situation (Excaliber, where are you?), but I know roughly what I would say.

"This is [insert name], and I am the homeowner at [insert address]. I have just shot an intruder and I'm holding him at gunpoint. He needs medical attention pretty quick. Please send police and an ambulance. Please inform responding officers that I am [insert height/weight/race/hair color], and wearing [insert clothing description here]. Also, please inform them that I am not going to put down my gun until they arrive on scene and have my safety covered."

And then stay on the phone with 911 until cops arrive, so that they can keep police informed of any status updates as they are en route and arriving.

If at all possible, have wife/significant other intercept officers on arrival to inform them that "the guy with the gun" is the good guy.

Edited to add: only do the last thing if you are confident of her safety if she goes outside. If there is any possibility whatsoever that other bad guys might be lurking outside still, then place yourself between her and the guy your shot until help arrives.

[baldeagle]

I think I agree with you.

[baraco01]

Very well said..... I myself have been thinking about those procedures that TAM said if ever I will be in that situation. The 2 most important things, in my opinion, are 1. to stay on the phone w/ the 911 dispatcher, and 2. to make sure my loved ones are safe while waiting for the cops.
I must admit that reading from this forum has cleared a lot of concerns and worries I have regarding carrying and self defense shooting.

[Liberty]

Very well said..... I myself have been thinking about those procedures that TAM said if ever I will be in that situation. The 2 most important things, in my opinion, are 1. to stay on the phone w/ the 911 dispatcher, and 2. to make sure my loved ones are safe while waiting for the cops.
I must admit that reading from this forum has cleared a lot of concerns and worries I have regarding carrying and self defense shooting.

Staying on the phone while not saying anything that will be used against us, might be more difficult than it sounds.
My rule is hang up immediately after giving what I deem is the most important information. The lawyers may be more dangerous to us than the arriving cops. Its been my experience that the 911 operators can be a dangerous distraction during a volatile and changing incident.

Everyone is different, every situation is different. Some people are more disciplined and can multitask better than others. Others are more self confident about not saying something incriminating while under stress. But we really should understand the pitfalls of staying on the phone with these people.

[Photoman]

Along with what Liberty said... 911 operators are notoriously famous for giving REALLY bad advice. I'm they type that can't talk on the phone and to a person present at the same time so I would probably set the phone down (not hanging up) after giving the basic information.

[Crossfire]

Staying on the phone while not saying anything that will be used against us, might be more difficult than it sounds.
My rule is hang up immediately after giving what I deem is the most important information. The lawyers may be more dangerous to us than the arriving cops. Its been my experience that the 911 operators can be a dangerous distraction during a volatile and changing incident.

I am with Liberty on this one. Everything you say to a 911 operator is recorded. Everything you say before you have been read your Miranda rights is admissable in court. It is the operator's job to get as much info out of you as possible. And since you are hopped up on adrenaline, your mouth will be running 90 mph while your brain is running about 40. Not a good situation.

My policy is, if you can't shut up, then HANG UP. Make sure they know who you are, where you are, and a VERY brief description of what you need - "I just shot a man who tried to kill me. Please send medical help and police". That's all. Then hang up and give your full attention to the situation at hand.

[baldeagle]

Crossfire, don't you think you'd need to give the 911 operator location and description as well? I just shot a man who tried to kill me. I need police and an ambulance right away. I'm at {location]. I'm [height], [weight]. I'm wearing [color of shirt and pants], and I have the BG at gunpoint. IOW, pretty much what TAM wrote.

[Excaliber]

TAM, I deliberately lurked for a while on this one because I wanted to let other good thoughts for discussion come out first.

I am not a lawyer, and nothing in the following suggestions should be construed as legal advice. It is just an overview outline of how an emergency call to police can be managed successfully. What you will and won't discuss should be prearranged with the advice of your attorney and agreement with anyone who might also need to manage the phone so that you don't create unnecessary problems at this stage of the incident.

Incident circumstances have infinite variations, so remember, this is just a sample.

When communicating an emergency, the MOST important piece of information WHERE followed by WHAT. Even if you can't communicate any more than that, help will be dispatched to the location and responders will have some idea of how to approach and the potential hazards they may face. If you only have time to give one of those pieces of information, go for the WHERE because WHAT without WHERE won't get you any help.

With those things in mind, here's a sample planning template you can modify according to your needs and situation:

I am at LOCATION and I am the VICTIM of a (TYPE OF CRIME) that just occurred. Please send police.

If there are injured persons, tell how many and add: Please send medical help for (number of injured) and (nature of injuries).

I personally would not offer, discuss, or answer how those injuries occurred at this point unless they were caused to innocents by suspects for the reasons Liberty eloquently described. I would only provide this information in a the statement given a couple of days later after discussion with a criminal law attorney. If asked by the dispatcher (and it probably will be), you can respond with either: I want to speak to my attorney before giving that information (a good thing to have on the 911 recording before you say anything else), OR Please just send help right now!

If you have a gun deployed, this is the time to state: I am a lawfully armed (homeowner / CHL holder / off duty LEO, etc.) and in fear of my life. I am (holding a suspect at gunpoint / etc.). I will secure the gun when officers arrive.

I will be at (location in home, or landmark outside). I am the VICTIM and I am a:

Sex
Race
Height
Weight
Hair
Clothing description from head to foot.

The SUSPECT (s) is (location) - e.g., on the ground in front of me, in the back yard, at large, etc. - give this data for each one.

Provide the same descriptors as above.

If vehicles are involved, give:

TAG NUMBER and STATE
Type
Color
Make
Model
Distinguishing details

If other persons are present (e.g. the better half) give the same information.

Note that descriptions are given in the order that most rapidly narrows down the potential pool of matches from characteristics that are most readily observed from a distance and working toward finer characteristics that may require a closer look. For example, stating the suspect is a male eliminates all females and narrows the match pool by about half, race narrows it again, height narrows it again, etc.

The exception is in the first line of the vehicle description which asks for the Tag Number. This is put first because if you get it right all the other info can be looked up in DMV records, and it narrows the field of possible matches to exactly one. It is therefore the most valuable piece of info on a vehicle. It is also the most often overlooked. Most folks will note the broken mirror or fancy hubcaps and forget to look for the tag number until a fleeing vehicle is too far away to make it out.

It's highly advantageous to come to an agreement on how you and the police will manage their arrival together. Examples are: Please ask officers to give a short burst of the siren on arrival. My wife will meet them at the curb by the mailbox. OR

Come to the northwest corner of the house. I will drop a set of keys out the window. OR

Ask officers to approach from behind me on Kearny St. and give two short bursts of the siren on arrival. I will place my gun on the ground and take two steps back away from it with my hands in clear view. (There are many variations - give this thought ahead of time so you can pull out an appropriate plan when you need it.)

In most cases it is advantageous to keep the line open with the dispatcher so unexpected changes in the situation can be rapidly communicated and responding units can adjust their tactics accordingly. For example, your supposedly incapacitated bad guy being held at gunpoint may gather his strength and come at you again. The dispatcher can also let you know when units are arriving on scene and how they will approach or what they want you to do.

You may not be able to keep the phone in your hand under the circumstances. You can either have someone else manage the phone, or you can advise the dispatcher you will put the phone down and ask him / her to leave the line open so you can provide additional information as needed until officers arrive.

This is just an outline of how you can thoughtfully approach the process to get the best results. There are too many possible variations in circumstances to provide a one size fits all script, but I hope it gives you some idea of how to construct something that would work for you.

[baldeagle]

Excaliber, I've been waiting anxiously for you to weigh in on this. Your experience is valuable. Based on what you've written, I came up with this:

Use of Deadly Force Incident Safety Card

STATE YOUR LOCATION: I am located at (state your location with accuracy)

I AM THE VICTIM of (nature of the crime) that has just occurred. Please send police.

PLEASE SEND MEDICAL HELP for (count) injured people with (describe the nature of the injuries. Don’t forget to include yourself, if you’ve been injured.)

I AM A LAWFULLY ARMED (homeowner / CHL holder / off duty LEO, etc.)

I AM IN FEAR OF MY LIFE. I am (holding a suspect at gunpoint / etc.).

I WILL SECURE MY WEAPON when officers arrive.

When the police arrive, I will be at (location in home, or landmark outside).

I am the VICTIM and I am a:
Sex
Race
Height
Weight
Hair
Clothing description from head to foot.

The SUSPECT (s) is (location) - e.g., on the ground in front of me, in the back yard, at large, etc. - give this data for each one.

I want to discuss this incident with an attorney before providing any additional detail.

Charles and other legal experts might want to vet this wording.

Once it's acceptable, it can be distilled to a laminated card that you can carry on your person, and which I would practice getting out and reading so that it becomes second nature to do that.

[Texas Dan Mosby]

Everything you say, can, and will be used against you in a court of law. Including a 911 call.

This can be good, and not so good...

There are examples of 911 calls that pretty clearly show the caller in fear of their lives, which can be used for their defense. Others, however, are vague and could go either way to defend or convict the caller.

My preference is to give as much information as possible while trying to minimize any potential legal risk due to an impromptu statement that could be misconstrued. I have a simple format I keep with my phone that will get used any time a 911 call is made.

Format....

Line 1: Request for - police and or ambulance
Line 2: Location - address and description
Line 3: Name and description of on scene point of contact
Line 4: Nature of event - I have witnessed a criminal / medical incident
Line 5: Number and type of injury - suspected fractures / trauma / loss of blood / gunshot or knife wounds
Line 6: Site security - secured to prevent harm / unsecured / not needed
Line 7: Statement of cooperation with on scene police / medic team

An example call would go something like this:

911, I am requesting police and an ambulance at the following address, 1234 Harmony lane in the town of peaceville. My name is Mr. Mosby and I will link up with the police / medics on scene. I am this color, this height, slim, and will be wearing jeans, a black shirt, and a red hat. I witnessed a criminal incident. There is one criminal at the scene with multiple gunshot wounds to the torso. I am currently securing the criminal with a firearm to prevent him from harming myself or my family. I will cooperate with the police and medical team when they arrive on site.

This format provides enough info to get an overall picture of the event, however, it does not incriminate the caller for anything other than being a "witness" to the event and securing a criminal to protect self and family. Stating you "witnessed" something is better than stating you "did" something imo.

There are generally 2 schools of thought when it comes to on-scene cooperation with LEO's, one is to say nothing without a lawyer, and the other is to provide enough detail to paint the picture, but stop talking after you have done so. I tend to agree with the second myself.

If you don't say anything, than LEO's won't have any information outside of what is provided by others at the scene. This is not good imo, as you could be surrounded by the friends of the criminal you had to defend yourself from. With no information, LEO's will pretty much have no recourse but to take you in.

I prefer to give a brief description of the event, witnesses, and on scene evidence before requesting medical attention for myself and an attorney. When making those brief descriptions, I feel it is important to think of the legal aspects that made your use of force justified. IE, show how the criminal had the intent to do great bodily harm or kill, which lead you to fear for your / your families life or limb. Show that he had the ability to do so because of a weapon, or other disparity of force. Show that your actions were immediately needed to stop the threat. With a brief description of the perceived intent, ability, and immediacy of the situation, LEO's should have enough evidence to paint the picture that you indeed were the "good guy". Further details can be discussed with an attorney.

Regardless of which option you choose, I believe training for the aftermath of a defensive encounter is just as important as training for the event itself. By being prepared to briefly articulate the facts at hand, you may not even need an attorney.

[mgood]

I've always been told to give location first, for exactly the reasons Excaliber mentioned. If that's the only information they get, then they'll at least send someone to check on you. If you're calling from a land line, in most areas they'll know the address before they pick up the phone, but don't count on it. If you're on a cell, this ain't NCIS where they can track the position of your cell in seconds. Tell them where you are.

What concerns me is the transfer of control from the GG/homeowner/CHL to the police. When and how, exactly? I can see them wanting me to put down my weapon before they come inside. I can see me not wanting to put down my weapon until they have their weapons pointed at the BG. No one wants to get shot. We've all seen the (probably fanciful) scenes in movies and TV shows where cops are pointing their weapons at the good guy screaming at him to "drop the gun," while the bad guy runs away. I do NOT like the idea of me putting my weapon on the ground and stepping back from it before the police enter. That could conceivably put it where it's easier for the BG to get it than for me to retrieve it. I could see myself holstering my weapon or putting it somewhere else near me and more or less out of sight as the police approach (say before they're in a position to observe me, when I hear the arrive outside but before they've entered my home in this example) and holding my hands out where they can be seen. I'd RATHER keep my weapon aimed at the BG, but I realize that would probably result in the police aiming their's at me and focusing on "the guy with the gun" rather than on the BG.

[Excaliber]

I've always been told to give location first, for exactly the reasons Excaliber mentioned. If that's the only information they get, then they'll at least send someone to check on you. If you're calling from a land line, in most areas they'll know the address before they pick up the phone, but don't count on it. If you're on a cell, this ain't NCIS where they can track the position of your cell in seconds. Tell them where you are.

What concerns me is the transfer of control from the GG/homeowner/CHL to the police. When and how, exactly? I can see them wanting me to put down my weapon before they come inside. I can see me not wanting to put down my weapon until they have their weapons pointed at the BG. No one wants to get shot. We've all seen the (probably fanciful) scenes in movies and TV shows where cops are pointing their weapons at the good guy screaming at him to "drop the gun," while the bad guy runs away. I do NOT like the idea of me putting my weapon on the ground and stepping back from it before the police enter. That could conceivably put it where it's easier for the BG to get it than for me to retrieve it. I could see myself holstering my weapon or putting it somewhere else near me and more or less out of sight as the police approach (say before they're in a position to observe me, when I hear the arrive outside but before they've entered my home in this example) and holding my hands out where they can be seen. I'd RATHER keep my weapon aimed at the BG, but I realize that would probably result in the police aiming their's at me and focusing on "the guy with the gun" rather than on the BG.

IFF (identification - friend or foe - see current discussion in another thread of that name) is a huge issue. If you have your gun visible when police arrive, your chances of getting shot by mistake are very high until you can communicate effectively and the officers stop seeing you as a potential threat. This is not a simple issue, and misunderstandings lead to very bad results.

Edit: Many agencies train their personnel to challenge from behind cover whenever possible to provide greater safety and an additional second or two to evaluate what they've got. An officer in an exposed position has a real quick, high consequence decision to make if he sees anything that could be a threat to his safety, but could just as well be something else entirely (like a CHL's head swivel done to see if help has arrived). Slowing down the action to give everyone more time to think, communicate, and deescalate is important when the situation allows.

Transfer of suspect control is always dicey. In the ideal case, you and the police would agree that you will keep your gun pointed either at a potentially still threatening BG or at the ground until they are in position to cover him, at which point you would put the gun down, reholster, or do whatever else makes responding officers most comfortable. However, unless you're an LEO, that's not going to be an easy sell.

There's nothing that requires you to stay close to an injured or surrendered bad guy. One option is to move away and take up a position to monitor the BG from behind cover of some type (e.g. a parked vehicle, light pole, tree, etc. if available). Increased distance generally brings decreased risk, and it may put you in a better position to see officers approach. It may also allow you to return the gun to the holster with or without your hand still on it until police arrive. When they do, you can either remove your hand from the holstered gun or place the gun on or alongside the cover and step back without either appearing threatening or exposing yourself to an unreasonable level of possible threat from the BG. This course of action takes a lot of the tension out of the initial moments.

If the BG is not badly hurt and decides to run, that's not a totally bad thing either because it allows you to reholster before police arrive. Remember it's not your obligation to effect arrest or prevent escape.

The one thing you MUST avoid is pointing or moving the gun AT ALL in the direction of the officers. Be aware that this can easily happen unintentionally when you move some other part of your body, like swiveling your head to look to the rear. If that motion starts, it forces officers in exposed positions to make an immediate deadly force decision. A flurry of loud sounds, even if followed by "Oops!", is not what you want to hear at that point.

[rdcrags]

In previous threads it was suggested, and I agree, that, if the 911 operator instructs you to lay down your weapon (while you still feel in danger), stop talking, lay down the phone, don't hang up, and continue your armed position guarding yourself until you feel safe enough to lay down your weapon or until an LEO has arrived.

TX CHL 1997
CO CHP 2005

[NOS]

There is some great information in this thread. One question I do have though, that to me seems it could make things easier on the arriving LEO's to not shoot the guy with the gun... What about handcuffs? If properly trained to use 'cuffs, it seems as though you could detain the BG and holster your weapon until LEO's arrive on scene. Your gun is still available if you must have it, but it is holstered and you are not providing a drawn weapon threat when the Officers get there.
I'm not saying that 'cuffing a BG is a safe practice, but if the guy is down and you are unsure if he still could recover and become a threat again, why not? What about if your wife, friend, or anyone at the scene with you can cover the BG while you handcuff them? I understand the danger of engaging the BG one on one physically while cuffing, but it seems like my chances might be better to handcuff him/her than have LEO come in and shoot the "guy with the gun". Assuming that I've already shot and stopped this person, I'm already legally obligated to the situation enough, why have a drawn weapon when police arrive? Depending on the exact situation it might be easier to deal with cuffing someone and let the LEO sort things out.
IANAL or a LEO, so any advice on handcuffs here would help clear this survival incident that I have running through my head.
On a much lighter note, I'm recovering from a major dental surgery and this could just be the medication talking so go easy on me