Katy Mills Mall

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Katy Mills Mall

Postby Katygunnut » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:25 pm

I have a question about the Katy Mills Mall in particular, but it probably also applies to other malls with similar signage.

The Katy Mills mall has 30.06 signs on the side walls near the mall entrances from the street. They are in plain view, but you definitely have to be looking to the side in order to see them.

There are also a number of stores that open to both the street and the mall. If you go through these stores, then there are no 30.06 signs in sight.

My question is whether one would be legally OK to carry into a store that does not have a 30.06 sign, and then proceed from that store into the mall, exiting in the same manner. Do you all think that there is any risk in this process? Specifically, are CHL holders required to check for signage at all possible entry points, or only those that they actually pass through?
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby Outbreaker » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:36 pm

I have wondered this as well. My instructor stated that as long as you do not see a sign....carry away. He is a Sheriff Deputy and gave a instace of a call he responded to due to a CHL holder carrying where not allowed. He did not arrest because the entrance the individual was parked at and entered through was not marked.....at all. Therefore he did not recieve any notice not to carry. No problem until a security officer saw the imprint.

It was not at Katy Mills but a hospital.

I carry at Katy Mills regularlly but always enter through BPS or Burlington.
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby PUCKER » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:40 pm

Question for you: does the 30.06 signage at Katy Mills contain the exact wording specified by 30.06? A sister mall, if you will, to Katy Mills is Grapevine Mills, it is posted with 30.06 as well, but the last time I looked the wording was not exact, it was close, but not exact.
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby The Annoyed Man » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:43 pm

PUCKER wrote:Question for you: does the 30.06 signage at Katy Mills contain the exact wording specified by 30.06? A sister mall, if you will, to Katy Mills is Grapevine Mills, it is posted with 30.06 as well, but the last time I looked the wording was not exact, it was close, but not exact.

But Grapevine PD has said that they WILL arrest anyone for carrying into the Grapevine Mills mall, CHL or not, and recommend charges.
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:50 pm

If the sign complies with TPC §30.06 and you know it's there, then you can be prosecuted if you enter the mall. Entering a store that is not posted is less clear. If that store's lease contract requires it to follow the mall's rules regarding its "no guns" policy, then arguably the 30.06 signs would apply to that store's location as well. If the lease is silent, then there's a good argument that the 30.06 signs apply only to the common areas, as well as any offices used by the mall owner.

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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby Katygunnut » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:59 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:If the sign complies with TPC §30.06 and you know it's there, then you can be prosecuted if you enter the mall. Entering a store that is not posted is less clear. If that store's lease contract requires it to follow the mall's rules regarding its "no guns" policy, then arguably the 30.06 signs would apply to that store's location as well. If the lease is silent, then there's a good argument that the 30.06 signs apply only to the common areas, as well as any offices used by the mall owner.

Chas.


OK, so its more a question of whether I need to check for signs at all possible entrances of other Malls (not Katy Mills). If I go to Mall X where I am not aware of signage that may or may not be present at various entrances, then should I check all possible entrances, or do I just need to focus on signage that is visible where I am physically entering the building?

This is a particularly applicable issue in a mall setting given the large number of public entrance points.
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby Outbreaker » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:05 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:If the sign complies with TPC §30.06 and you know it's there, then you can be prosecuted if you enter the mall. Entering a store that is not posted is less clear. If that store's lease contract requires it to follow the mall's rules regarding its "no guns" policy, then arguably the 30.06 signs would apply to that store's location as well. If the lease is silent, then there's a good argument that the 30.06 signs apply only to the common areas, as well as any offices used by the mall owner.

Chas.


If you enter the store from the outside (and it is not posted) and the entrance to the mall from the store is not posted. So you never see a 30.06 sign. How are you to be informed that the mall is off limits?
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby BobCat » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:14 pm

Went to Bass Pro in Katy Mills mall shortly after it first opened. No 30.06 sign at the Bass Pro store.

Exited into the mall "common area" and saw a valid sign posted somewhere, I forget exactly where. Commented to my friend, whose idea it was to visit Bass Pro. He told me to shut up about it and we should leave.

Left and never went back.

You know the mall is posted. If you carry in there you are violating the law, at least in spirit.

I do not want to test Charles' idea that the individual stores may not be bound by the mall's rules. There is nothing in Kay Mills mall that I want that badly.
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby Katygunnut » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:21 pm

BobCat wrote:Went to Bass Pro in Katy Mills mall shortly after it first opened. No 30.06 sign at the Bass Pro store.

Exited into the mall "common area" and saw a valid sign posted somewhere, I forget exactly where. Commented to my friend, whose idea it was to visit Bass Pro. He told me to shut up about it and we should leave.

Left and never went back.

You know the mall is posted. If you carry in there you are violating the law, at least in spirit.

I do not want to test Charles' idea that the individual stores may not be bound by the mall's rules. There is nothing in Kay Mills mall that I want that badly.


There is a sign just inside the mall entrance that is around the corner from BPS. That may have been the sign you saw (although you probably wouldn't be close enough to see the sign unless you were headed to that exit).

I am thankful to Charles for his advice in my personal circumstance for this particular mall. Since I know that they have a compliant (I believe) sign on at least one possible entrance, I will not carry there.

My follow-up question relates to malls in general. Do I need to check all possible mall entrances for signage, or am I OK as long as there are no posted compliant signs at the entrances that I go through?
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby PUCKER » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:21 pm

Not to open that can o' worms again, but I'm not worried about that...I'd like to know "if" they've ever done it...the way I look at it, legal is legal, including signage. If my wife/relatives decide that they "JUST HAVE TO GO" to GV Mills then I'm packing, end of story, if I end up being "made" it will be due to the use of my carry piece. FWIW - the wife doesn't go there, she gets it, now some of my relatives, they come in from town and "JUST HAVE TO GO THERE" and that includes eating at a horribly overpriced restaurant....my stay is usually limited to meeting them for a meal and then getting out of dodge :roll: :tiphat:

The Annoyed Man wrote:
PUCKER wrote:Question for you: does the 30.06 signage at Katy Mills contain the exact wording specified by 30.06? A sister mall, if you will, to Katy Mills is Grapevine Mills, it is posted with 30.06 as well, but the last time I looked the wording was not exact, it was close, but not exact.

But Grapevine PD has said that they WILL arrest anyone for carrying into the Grapevine Mills mall, CHL or not, and recommend charges.
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:23 pm

Katygunnut wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:If the sign complies with TPC §30.06 and you know it's there, then you can be prosecuted if you enter the mall. Entering a store that is not posted is less clear. If that store's lease contract requires it to follow the mall's rules regarding its "no guns" policy, then arguably the 30.06 signs would apply to that store's location as well. If the lease is silent, then there's a good argument that the 30.06 signs apply only to the common areas, as well as any offices used by the mall owner.

Chas.


OK, so its more a question of whether I need to check for signs at all possible entrances of other Malls (not Katy Mills). If I go to Mall X where I am not aware of signage that may or may not be present at various entrances, then should I check all possible entrances, or do I just need to focus on signage that is visible where I am physically entering the building?

This is a particularly applicable issue in a mall setting given the large number of public entrance points.


You're not obliged to search the building for signs. If you go to a store/mall and enter without seeing any signs, and you don't already know signs are posted on other doors, then you have not been given effective notice pursuant to TPC §30.06.

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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:24 pm

Outbreaker wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:If the sign complies with TPC §30.06 and you know it's there, then you can be prosecuted if you enter the mall. Entering a store that is not posted is less clear. If that store's lease contract requires it to follow the mall's rules regarding its "no guns" policy, then arguably the 30.06 signs would apply to that store's location as well. If the lease is silent, then there's a good argument that the 30.06 signs apply only to the common areas, as well as any offices used by the mall owner.

Chas.


If you enter the store from the outside (and it is not posted) and the entrance to the mall from the store is not posted. So you never see a 30.06 sign. How are you to be informed that the mall is off limits?


Under that fact pattern, you haven't been given effective notice under TPC §30.06.

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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby Katygunnut » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:26 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Katygunnut wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:If the sign complies with TPC §30.06 and you know it's there, then you can be prosecuted if you enter the mall. Entering a store that is not posted is less clear. If that store's lease contract requires it to follow the mall's rules regarding its "no guns" policy, then arguably the 30.06 signs would apply to that store's location as well. If the lease is silent, then there's a good argument that the 30.06 signs apply only to the common areas, as well as any offices used by the mall owner.

Chas.


OK, so its more a question of whether I need to check for signs at all possible entrances of other Malls (not Katy Mills). If I go to Mall X where I am not aware of signage that may or may not be present at various entrances, then should I check all possible entrances, or do I just need to focus on signage that is visible where I am physically entering the building?

This is a particularly applicable issue in a mall setting given the large number of public entrance points.


You're not obliged to search the building for signs. If you go to a store/mall and enter without seeing any signs, and you don't already know signs are posted on other doors, then you have not been given effective notice pursuant to TPC §30.06.

Chas.


That answers my question.

Thanks!
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby Mastodon » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:01 pm

Darn.
To avoid confusion, I guess I'll have to get my dippin' dots and Old Navy pants elsewhere. :roll:
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Re: Katy Mills Mall

Postby jamisjockey » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:20 am

I took the kids to Katy Mills about a month and a half ago. I never saw any signs. We entered through the bike shop, went into BPS and bought ammo :evil2: , back to the truck through one of the mall entrances, and then walked most of the mall.
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