How to check if a premise is 51%?

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bigtek
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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby bigtek » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:46 pm

Keith B wrote:
spectre wrote:The signs don't say weapons aren't allowed. They say the unlicensed possession of a weapon is a felony.

Obviously, the signs don't apply to an AR15, a Kershaw Blur, or a small OC canister. Why? Because carrying those weapons in that location isn't a felony.

P.S. I'm in Texas.


A rifle (firearm) is an unlicensed weapon, as is a Kershaw Blur (knife). A small OC canister is not a weapon as it is specifically exempted in TPC 46.01(14):
(14) "Chemical dispensing device" means a device, other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for personal protection, that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse psychological or physiological effect on a human being.


And while not a felony, the sign is notice that (unlicensed) weapons are not allowed, so it is a violation of 30.05 and a misdemeanor. Don't care what the sign states the penalty is, as that does not make the sign invalid as there is no legally defined specific verbiage requirements for the TABC signs, just a general requirement.

It sounds like you're saying it's illegal to have a Kershaw Blur or a similar pocket knife at HEB if they sell beer and wine and post a TABC blue sign. I don't think that's correct.

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ScottDLS
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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby ScottDLS » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:29 pm

Keith B wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:
Whether they really are 51% or not, the TABC license determines if it's legal for the good guys to carry there. Well, legal to carry handguns, since carrying a rifle or a shotgun is not a crime in 51% establishments. So that's what I do.


I sure hope you are not carrying a rifle or shotgun into a 51% location, as that is a felony to carry a weapon (not handgun) into one.

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Also, carrying an unlicensed weapon, meaning one that you can't get a license to carry (handgun), in a non-51% location is also a felony per TABC, but really it's a crime if they allow you to stay on premise with one.

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No actually it’s not illegal to carry a concealed rifle into a 51% location. It’s against tabc rules for the bar, but not illegal.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby Keith B » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:07 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
Keith B wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:
Whether they really are 51% or not, the TABC license determines if it's legal for the good guys to carry there. Well, legal to carry handguns, since carrying a rifle or a shotgun is not a crime in 51% establishments. So that's what I do.


I sure hope you are not carrying a rifle or shotgun into a 51% location, as that is a felony to carry a weapon (not handgun) into one.

Image

Also, carrying an unlicensed weapon, meaning one that you can't get a license to carry (handgun), in a non-51% location is also a felony per TABC, but really it's a crime if they allow you to stay on premise with one.

Image


No actually it’s not illegal to carry a concealed rifle into a 51% location. It’s against tabc rules for the bar, but not illegal.


If there is notice, then it would be a 30,05 violation.
Keith
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Keith B
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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby Keith B » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:10 pm

bigtek wrote:
Keith B wrote:
spectre wrote:The signs don't say weapons aren't allowed. They say the unlicensed possession of a weapon is a felony.

Obviously, the signs don't apply to an AR15, a Kershaw Blur, or a small OC canister. Why? Because carrying those weapons in that location isn't a felony.

P.S. I'm in Texas.


A rifle (firearm) is an unlicensed weapon, as is a Kershaw Blur (knife). A small OC canister is not a weapon as it is specifically exempted in TPC 46.01(14):
(14) "Chemical dispensing device" means a device, other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for personal protection, that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse psychological or physiological effect on a human being.


And while not a felony, the sign is notice that (unlicensed) weapons are not allowed, so it is a violation of 30.05 and a misdemeanor. Don't care what the sign states the penalty is, as that does not make the sign invalid as there is no legally defined specific verbiage requirements for the TABC signs, just a general requirement.

It sounds like you're saying it's illegal to have a Kershaw Blur or a similar pocket knife at HEB if they sell beer and wine and post a TABC blue sign. I don't think that's correct.

Image


I am saying it is a 30.05 violation if the sign says 'weapon'. if it says 'handgun', then it would not be a violation.
Keith
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ScottDLS
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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby ScottDLS » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:45 pm

Keith B wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
Keith B wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:
Whether they really are 51% or not, the TABC license determines if it's legal for the good guys to carry there. Well, legal to carry handguns, since carrying a rifle or a shotgun is not a crime in 51% establishments. So that's what I do.


I sure hope you are not carrying a rifle or shotgun into a 51% location, as that is a felony to carry a weapon (not handgun) into one.

Image

Also, carrying an unlicensed weapon, meaning one that you can't get a license to carry (handgun), in a non-51% location is also a felony per TABC, but really it's a crime if they allow you to stay on premise with one.

Image


No actually it’s not illegal to carry a concealed rifle into a 51% location. It’s against tabc rules for the bar, but not illegal.


If there is notice, then it would be a 30,05 violation.


A TABC blue notice or a 51% sign would hardly seem to qualify as notice. I don’t see anything in them prohibiting your entry. The are simply making note of the law regarding handguns. Weapon has a specific definition in PC chapter 46 and it doesn’t include long guns.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby Nutcracker » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:16 pm

Thank you for demonstrating my point that Texas DPS and LTC Instructors don't always teach the actual law.

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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby Keith B » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:31 pm

Nutcracker wrote:Thank you for demonstrating my point that Texas DPS and LTC Instructors don't always teach the actual law.


I didn't.
Keith
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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby Keith B » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:43 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
A TABC blue notice or a 51% sign would hardly seem to qualify as notice. I don’t see anything in them prohibiting your entry. The are simply making note of the law regarding handguns. Weapon has a specific definition in PC chapter 46 and it doesn’t include long guns.


TPC 1.07 defines deadly weapon

(17) "Deadly weapon" means:

(A) a firearm or anything manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting death or serious bodily injury; or

(B) anything that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury.


So, it is in the general provisions and would apply to TPC 30.05 on notice. I believe that it is notice that entry is forbidden with a weapon.

At this point, I am done with this topic and stand by my position until a court or AG decision shows differently.
Keith
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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby Nutcracker » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:53 pm

Based on the letter of the law, I also stand by my position until a court or AG decision shows differently.

Both positions. :tiphat:

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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby ScottDLS » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:49 pm

Keith B wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
A TABC blue notice or a 51% sign would hardly seem to qualify as notice. I don’t see anything in them prohibiting your entry. The are simply making note of the law regarding handguns. Weapon has a specific definition in PC chapter 46 and it doesn’t include long guns.


TPC 1.07 defines deadly weapon

(17) "Deadly weapon" means:

(A) a firearm or anything manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting death or serious bodily injury; or

(B) anything that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury.


So, it is in the general provisions and would apply to TPC 30.05 on notice. I believe that it is notice that entry is forbidden with a weapon.

At this point, I am done with this topic and stand by my position until a court or AG decision shows differently.


And in section 46.01 which is in the chapter laying out the penalty for violating a 51% sign “weapon”, not “deadly weapon” is defined as a handgun, club, illegal knife, etc. The 51% sign does not say firearm, or deadly weapon, it says weapon. It also does not indicate your entry to the property is forbidden as required by 30.05 criminal trespass, it simply complies with the posting requirements for TABC licensees. You are committing no crime by carrying a rifle In licensed premises whether red or blue, unless the owner makes you aware your entry or continued presence is forbidden as required by 30.05.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby warnmar10 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:02 pm

Nutcracker wrote:Based on the letter of the law, I also stand by my position until a court or AG decision shows differently.

Both positions. :tiphat:
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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby Terlingueno » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:39 pm

I am very disappointed with TABC, having filed several written complaints about the Starlight Theater in Terlingua displaying a 51% sign when in fact, according to the TABC website, should be a "Blue", Unlicensed Possession sign. Anyone know what the next step should be? The management of that establishment knows they have the wrong sign, but refuse to comply. Oh well.

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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby Keith B » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:46 pm

Terlingueno wrote:I am very disappointed with TABC, having filed several written complaints about the Starlight Theater in Terlingua displaying a 51% sign when in fact, according to the TABC website, should be a "Blue", Unlicensed Possession sign. Anyone know what the next step should be? The management of that establishment knows they have the wrong sign, but refuse to comply. Oh well.


Did you get a confirmation from TABC stating they went and talked to the business? if not, I would contact the local field office over Terlingua and talk to someone about the issue they they have the wrong sign up.
Keith
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Re: How to check if a premise is 51%?

Postby srothstein » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:15 am

Terlingueno wrote:I am very disappointed with TABC, having filed several written complaints about the Starlight Theater in Terlingua displaying a 51% sign when in fact, according to the TABC website, should be a "Blue", Unlicensed Possession sign. Anyone know what the next step should be? The management of that establishment knows they have the wrong sign, but refuse to comply. Oh well.


If you do not get an answer from your local office, contact Maj. Mark Menn in the Lubbock Office. He is the supervisor for enforcement in that region.
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