Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby The Annoyed Man » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:57 am

loblolly wrote:As far as buying my gun, I bought it through a dealer and answered no to being involuntarily commited. I very honestly did not think about it when I filled out the form-its so far in my past. I am certain that I signed myself in to the hospital; however, the application states even a voluntary stay at a psychiatric facility is a disqualification unless I can prove I am now fine. Like I said, it was a lifetime ago for me. I am willing to do what I need to do b/c at this time, I hesitate to hike, camp, ride my horses or bike alone in remote areas and I want a sense of security (even if it is a false sense of security). Im a small female and know Im no match physically for the average sized man.

So, does anyone know of a good second ammendment supporting psychiatrist in the north houston area?

Hi loblolly. Welcome to the forum, by the way. What follows is absolutely without judgement on my part, but just something to think about with your suicide attempt and subsequent hospitalization......

I don't know what they call it here in Texas, but when I worked in a large ER back in California there was a thing called a 5150. If a patient arrived in our ER having made an attempt on their life, or having attempted to hurt someone else during a psychotic episode, they would be examined by whatever mental health professional was on call for that shift. If that patient was deemed to still be a risk of harm to themselves or others, they would be put on a "5150," which means that they are placed on a 72 hour psychiatric hold and moved to a psychiatric facility for further observation and treatment. If 72 hours is not enough time to get them through that crisis, or the mental illness is more profound, then the psychiatrist in charge of the case can extend the psychiatric hold for another 15 days. Once that 15 days is passed, then the patient must either be released, or hospitalized/institutionalized for long term care.

The point of all this is that I have seen many 5150 patients who were cooperative with what was happening to them, and even wanted the intervention and were glad that the system was responding to their need, BUT, they were not being "voluntarily" committed. That particular decision was entirely in the hands of the mental health professional managing their case, and the person under threat of 5150 had no say whatsoever in it. I am assuming that Texas has some similar psychiatric instrument for the managing of acute psychiatric episodes in an emergency room. If that is the case, you may very well remember your commission as voluntary because you wanted the help, but in the end the decision wasn't yours to make, and that might be the difference between eligible and not eligible.

Best of luck and blessings to you. I certainly hope that this all works out well for you. For what it's worth, my experience is that people who really want to die succeed in doing it. All the rest are just trying to get help, and they're desperate and don't know how else to get the attention/help they need. But they don't truly want to die. Having had two successful suicides happen in my life in recent years, this is a painful subject for me. One of them was a long time friend and my employer who killed himself in late 2007. The other is a distant family member of mine who killed himself just a week ago.
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby Jumping Frog » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:52 am

TAM, the ATF does not classify a 72-hour observation as an involuntary comittment for federal firearm disability purposes. Read the FAQ that I linked above.
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby WildBill » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:30 am

I still don't know the diagnosis or if the stay in the hospital was voluntary or not. It seems these two facts are what will make the difference getting the CHL.
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby seamusTX » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:20 pm

bkj wrote:If you follow this path I would not tell the Dr. that you want a CHL. He or She may find that crazy in its self. Give some other reason for needing a clean bill of health employment maybe.

Am I the only one who thinks that lying to a psychiatrist who is trying to evaluate a person's sanity may not be a real good idea?

Especially when a CHL applicant allows DPS access to all medical records.

There are psychiatrists and other mental health professionals who routinely evaluate people for their suitability to carry a weapon. This is done for many if not most LEOs who use deadly force on duty, and many other law-enforcement and military personnel. Probably someone in a local police union could tell you who does it in the area.

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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby WildBill » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:25 pm

seamusTX wrote:
bkj wrote:If you follow this path I would not tell the Dr. that you want a CHL. He or She may find that crazy in its self. Give some other reason for needing a clean bill of health employment maybe.

Am I the only one who thinks that lying to a psychiatrist who is trying to evaluate a person's sanity may not be a real good idea?

Especially when a CHL applicant allows DPS access to all medical records.

There are psychiatrists and other mental health professionals who routinely evaluate people for their suitability to carry a weapon. This is done for many if not most LEOs who use deadly force on duty, and many other law-enforcement and military personnel. Probably someone in a local police union could tell you who does it in the area.

- Jim

I wouldn't want a diagnosis as a manipulator and liar on my medical record.
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby seamusTX » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:30 pm

WildBill wrote:I wouldn't want a diagnosis as a manipulator and liar on my medical record.

Imagine a world where that would be a disqualification for holding pubic office.

But I live in a fantasy world. ;-)

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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby WildBill » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:47 pm

seamusTX wrote:
WildBill wrote:I wouldn't want a diagnosis as a manipulator and liar on my medical record.

Imagine a world where that would be a disqualification for holding pubic office.

But I live in a fantasy world. ;-)

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You most surely do. :smilelol5:
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby JP171 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:16 pm

seamusTX wrote:
WildBill wrote:I wouldn't want a diagnosis as a manipulator and liar on my medical record.

Imagine a world where that would be a disqualification for holding pubic office.

But I live in a fantasy world. ;-)

- Jim



the planet of wild untamed nurses?????? :smilelol5:
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby gras » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:40 pm

Was that on Cinemax?
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby The Annoyed Man » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:31 pm

Jumping Frog wrote:TAM, the ATF does not classify a 72-hour observation as an involuntary comittment for federal firearm disability purposes. Read the FAQ that I linked above.

Well, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I think that in this political climate, with this administration, and this ATF, (particularly in light of the recent Aurora theater shooting) I wouldn't be so sure how "they" interpret that, because, at least in California, a 5150 hold is NOT voluntary. The legal instrument of 5150 means that it doesn't matter what the patient's opinion is—he/she has no say in the matter of their case disposition. And if that 72 involuntary hold is extended to 15 days, that is not voluntary either. "Voluntary" means that the subject patient asked to be hospitalized without ever having had an involuntary hold placed on them. But as I said in my previous post, I don't know for sure what Texas law says about this.....only that I assume something similar. Speaking purely philosophically, I view depriving a citizen of their freedom without due process—as in a chance to confront one's accuser with an advocate defending you—is terribly wrong. I think we can make a case for 72 hour holds in the event of a psychotic crisis, but converting that to 15 days without the patient's consent and without a courtroom hearing and the involvement of a judge and jury is wrong because it is too easy for "powers that be" to abuse it without consequence.

Also, as someone who has worked in healthcare, I am more than aware that even an involuntary commission doesn't necessarily mean that a person is permanently "crazy" or that—at least from a moral/ethical perspective, regardless of what the law says—such a person ought to be barred by law from ever owning a firearm again. Mental illness, or at lease some manifestations of it, can be cured. In my humble opinion, if a person had been hospitalized and successfully treated for some kind of schizophrenic episode or suicidal tendencies when they were 21, and then had subsequently lived for decades after without any recurrence, then a law which disarms that person is a immoral law.

That's just my opinion......but that doesn't mean that some liberal psychiatrist who hates guns and who is employed by a government agency is going to agree with me; and it certainly doesn't mean that the congress critters who wrote the law knew a darn thing about psychiatry when they wrote it. And that is the spirit behind what I posted to the OP. Personally, I have no problem with him/her having a firearm, or carrying it, and I would encourage it. I'm just not so sanguine about what government will do about it.

But that's just my opinion, and it's worth about what it cost to read it.
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby Jumping Frog » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:01 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Jumping Frog wrote:TAM, the ATF does not classify a 72-hour observation as an involuntary commitment for federal firearm disability purposes. Read the FAQ that I linked above.

Well, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I think that in this political climate, with this administration, and this ATF, (particularly in light of the recent Aurora theater shooting) I wouldn't be so sure how "they" interpret that, because, at least in California, a 5150 hold is NOT voluntary. The legal instrument of 5150 means that it doesn't matter what the patient's opinion is—he/she has no say in the matter of their case disposition.


Well, I hear what you are saying about our government acting lawlessly. But when it comes to convicting a person under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(4) for possessing a firearm while under disability for being committed, they court would have to completely ignore this:

27 C.F.R. 478.11 Committed to a mental institution. A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.


By their very nature, the 72 hour commitments in various states are observational. Now, someone having that stay involuntarily extended to 15 or what ever # days is a different story.
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby loblolly » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:26 pm

Im sorry that I havent checked in for so long but I thought this thread had died. I appreciate everyones input and encouragement. I made an appointment with a very experienced (and expensive) psychiatrist in a small town. I was honest with him about my reason for the appointment and trust that, being a professional, his personal feelings regarding gun control will not affect his opinion of my mental condition. I requested my medical records from my stay in the hospital because I don't even know what my final diagnosis was. I asked to leave the hospital after a few days and was out by that afternoon with no medication or further instructions. I understand why I have to prove myself and actually appreciate that the state is careful not to hand out permits to people who may not be fit to carry a gun. All I can do is go through the process and see what happens.
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby seamusTX » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:56 pm

Good luck. Personally, I don't think you will have a problem.

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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby chipset » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:01 am

i know it's been a while, but I thought I would ask. What ever happened?

I am in a similar situation. 4 years ago my world fell apart as I realized my then wife's infidelity. I was quite distraught and threatened. Needless to say, I was taken in for observation. I am assuming a situation similar to yours. I was never finger printed, never saw a judge and after a couple days I was released.

I did own a firearm. And in fact went to the police department to retrieve them. To add irony to the situation, my ex now works for that police department.

I own a firearm. And was thinking about getting another. But now I am concerned that while the BATF doesn't consider it an issue, the state of Texas may.

Did you get yours successfully resolved?

Thanks!
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Re: Need Advice - just realized I wont pass background check

Postby SuperflyMD » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:32 am

I don't know what they call it here in Texas, but when I worked in a large ER back in California there was a thing called a 5150. If a patient arrived in our ER having made an attempt on their life, or having attempted to hurt someone else during a psychotic episode, they would be examined by whatever mental health professional was on call for that shift. If that patient was deemed to still be a risk of harm to themselves or others, they would be put on a "5150,"


In Texas it's a Section 26 if it's filled out by a LEO. Section 28s are filled out by everybody else, including ER Docs and psychiatrists. The 28s have to be signed by a judge or JOP to be valid, but are almost never rejected. Legislative efforts underway to allow physicians to use the 26 or equivalent without a judge because currently psychiatric patients are stuck in the ER for many hours (sometimes days) waiting on signatures.

I'm not sure how BATF or DPS treat these types of "holds" but EVERYTIME I fill one out, I consider that I am probably preventing this person from purchasing or carrying firearms for the rest of his or her life. Granted, most of the people I fill these out on are "repeat offenders" who are already in the system and have acute exacerbations of their condition. I've got no problem with that group being excluded from owning firearms. Sometimes, however, I get a patient like loblolly. Unless they are aggressive or seem like a real risk, I make efforts to get them the help they need without committing them. I hate the idea that a one-time plea for help can haunt a person forever.
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