Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use it

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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby The Annoyed Man » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:57 pm

Oldgringo wrote:
Heartland Patriot wrote:Just making sure I have this correct...in Texas, a pellet gun would be considered a deadly weapon?

I dunno', HP. At that time of night/morning and in that setting, a gun is a gun.....

That's the thing.... a lot of pellet guns look like a real firearm, even fairly up close. And even if you were to take the time to squint at the muzzle to try and see what it was, under duress how many of us would be able to tell the difference at a quick glance between a .22" aperture and a .177" aperture? I'm not waiting to find out. I'm not even waiting to see what comes out if he shoots first. I'm not going to give him the opportunity to shoot first.

That pellet gun is a threat of deadly force, whether or not it is actually deadly. The law permits me to respond with deadly force. I will.

Code: Select all
TPC § 9.01.  DEFINITIONS.  In this chapter:
(1)  .....
(2)  .....
(3)  "Deadly force" means force that is intended or known by the actor to cause, or in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing, death or serious bodily injury.

Code: Select all
§ 1.07. DEFINITIONS.  (a) In this code:                                     
      (1)  .....
      (2)  .....
      (3)  .....
      (4)  .....
      (5)  .....                           
      (6)  .....
      (7)  .....
      (8)  "Bodily injury" means physical pain, illness, or any impairment of physical condition.

A pellet gun is fully capable of producing physical pain, blindness, surgical intervention, and even death. Pull one on somebody in order to coerce them by means of a threat of deadly force, or by actually pulling the trigger which IS deadly force, and nobody will have the right to blame you if you take that person out. I'm not havin' any of it. Pull a pellet gun on me, and I will shoot at you. With luck, you'll live. At least I'll call 911 and ask for an ambulance for you, which is more than you would have done for me.

No pity from me on this.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby Heartland Patriot » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:24 am

TAM, I know the sort of work you used to do and I will certainly take your word on the seriousness of the injuries you've dealt with in regards to pellet guns. And I'm certain you are also correct that in a lot of situations, it would be VERY hard to assess whether the person had a .177 pellet gun on you or a .22 rimfire. I guess the bad guy in this one is just really lucky that he didn't get shot...and the man who got shot with the pellets is very lucky, too.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby E10 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:45 am

Aren't there .177 cal. rimfire pistols? Seems I've seen ads for the Ruger Single Six and othe handguns in .177 cal. How does one tell it ain't a firearm? I admire the man's reatraint - I probably woulda blown the guy up.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby texanjoker » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:23 am

Dragonfighter wrote:Anyone remember the guys going around firing paintball guns at people and filming it? The sad fact is I would probably have returned fire. They "pop" and really hurt and if I saw a red splat where I was hurting I would count myself dead and return fire. A pellet gun on the other hand is, or at least can be, a lethal weapon; ask the mafia.


I would not want to use lethal force on somebody with a paint ball. IF one were to use lethal force against a paintball marker, you better able to clearly articulate why you did. We carried the pepperballs (harder then normal paint balls and full of pepper spray in a powder). The company guarantees that they are non lethal if you use their equipment which is their expensive paint ball launcher. It is no different then a store bought marker, just you pay a lot more for the guarantee of it being non lethal. I have shot many a crook with these and nobody ever required anything more then a wash down of the pepper powder.

I wonder if this guy really knew it was a pellet gun or not. He is quoted as saying he couldn't do it. He was not quoted about knowing it was a pellet gun. With the tunnel vision he would have been exposed to, I personally believe he didn't know what it was. People with pellet guns do get shot by LEO's and they are good shootings. There is not time in that split second to determine if it is real or not. In this case the victim was shot in the fact as well by a pellet. I wonder if he will re-think carrying a gun since he now knows he can't pull the trigger.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby Vol Texan » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:44 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:That's the thing.... a lot of pellet guns look like a real firearm, even fairly up close. And even if you were to take the time to squint at the muzzle to try and see what it was, under duress how many of us would be able to tell the difference at a quick glance between a .22" aperture and a .177" aperture? I'm not waiting to find out. I'm not even waiting to see what comes out if he shoots first. I'm not going to give him the opportunity to shoot first.


:iagree:

Try and convince the guys at the airport TSA checkpoint that it's 'just a pellet gun'. Even with the ability to calmly assess it and determine its true nature, you're still not getting it on the plane with you.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby C-dub » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:53 am

The police are supposed to be the "experts" and they have killed several people carrying pellet or BB guns and I haven't heard of one LEO being fired or jailed having killed someone with a pellet gun. Afterwards, they always say that they thought it was a real gun or couldn't tell the difference. Why should the burden of self defense be any less for me.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby Ericstac » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:06 am

To me it sounds like he didn't know it was a pellet gun. It all happened so quick that the guy was already fleeing and Mohammed saw bystanders and didn't want to risk hitting them while shooting quinnel and I think at that point he realized he was injured from a hi powered gun.


It wasn't a " oh this cat has a pellet gun so I won't shoot him" moment like the title makes it sound.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby chasfm11 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:28 am

C-dub wrote:The police are supposed to be the "experts" and they have killed several people carrying pellet or BB guns and I haven't heard of one LEO being fired or jailed having killed someone with a pellet gun. Afterwards, they always say that they thought it was a real gun or couldn't tell the difference. Why should the burden of self defense be any less for me.



http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/10/25/police-suspect-shot-by-officers-had-toy-gun/

http://www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/Teen-Involved-in-Police-Stand-Off-Has-A-Criminal-Past--163940836.html

http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/132566613.html


While I don't agree with the victim not shooting back, I do think that there are a couple of good points on this story.

1. It confirms what everyone has been trying to tell the gun grabbing Libs - just because we have a gun doesn't mean that we are going around looking for places to use it.

2. The victim and his girlfriend had talked about strategy in a bad event. She apparently separated from him and hide as they had agreed that she would do. I think this is a very important lesson for others. We need to have had the discussion with our loved ones in advance. I've emphasized the importance of separation, which is not the natural thing to do, because it adds confusion to the BGs and doesn't limit options as much as having a family member desperately clinging while things are going South.

The story does say that the CHL recognized that a bystander would have been in the line of fire, though apparently that is after the BG took off. A scenario of the CHL shooting at the BG with pellet gun and wounding or killing an innocent in the process probably wouldn't have gone well for the CHL afterward. Just sayin'.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby Dave2 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:07 pm

E10 wrote:Aren't there .177 cal. rimfire pistols? Seems I've seen ads for the Ruger Single Six and othe handguns in .177 cal. How does one tell it ain't a firearm? I admire the man's reatraint - I probably woulda blown the guy up.

There's .17HMR, yeah. It's about all that Bass Pro has left.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby Abraham » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:18 pm

You better believe a pellet rifle/pistol can kill.

I have one made in Germany. One crank. 1200 fps with .177 cal.

I've shot many a squirrel with it and it completely holed them.

Just because the round isn't propelled by gunpowder doesn't make them ineffective or non-lethal...
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby texanjoker » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:02 pm

C-dub wrote:The police are supposed to be the "experts" and they have killed several people carrying pellet or BB guns and I haven't heard of one LEO being fired or jailed having killed someone with a pellet gun. Afterwards, they always say that they thought it was a real gun or couldn't tell the difference. Why should the burden of self defense be any less for me.


Police are trained to respond to a threat. Point what appears to be a gun or worse yet in this case, shoot a cop in the face and expect to be shot. Again until faced with the actual incident, one doesn't know if they can do it. The police train in scenarios to build muscle memory to respond to threats like this. Same standard should be applied to the armed citizen that is not out committing crimes (ie gang bangs shooting each other)
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby TexasCajun » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:24 pm

I train to quickly & cleanly draw my weapon from concealment. I train to effectively place multiple shots on target in center mass. I DON'T train to correctly identify the make, model, or caliber of the gun being pointed at me. The events that the majority of us train for happen in mere seconds. That's not nearly enough time to identify the threat, then second guess yourself, then decide what the appropriate response should be. That second guess could have cost the victim in the story his life or that of his girlfriend. Glad it didn't.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby 03Lightningrocks » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:08 pm

I am one of the folks who would have shot the guy. All I would have thought is gun... I would have drawn and fired with no thought of whether it was a pellet gun or a water gun.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby Dragonfighter » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:36 pm

texanjoker wrote:
Dragonfighter wrote:Anyone remember the guys going around firing paintball guns at people and filming it? The sad fact is I would probably have returned fire. They "pop" and really hurt and if I saw a red splat where I was hurting I would count myself dead and return fire. A pellet gun on the other hand is, or at least can be, a lethal weapon; ask the mafia.


I would not want to use lethal force on somebody with a paint ball. IF one were to use lethal force against a paintball marker, you better able to clearly articulate why you did. We carried the pepperballs (harder then normal paint balls and full of pepper spray in a powder). The company guarantees that they are non lethal if you use their equipment which is their expensive paint ball launcher. It is no different then a store bought marker, just you pay a lot more for the guarantee of it being non lethal. I have shot many a crook with these and nobody ever required anything more then a wash down of the pepper powder.
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If you're not familiar with the case I cited, there were teenagers in the Plano area (IIRC) that were rolling around at night in their car. They would see a jogger or somebody walking home and pull up next to them at night, open fire while recording the action. Having seen the videos it was a significant "pop", "pop", "pop" and the victims doubling over in pain. So let me ask, if with your experience, a car load of teenagers pull up next to you at night stick the barrel of a weapon out the window and open fire at you. Are you going to wait and see if you survive the hits (and yes I have been hit with paint balls in and out of padding, and have had significant bruising with padding) or even wait to get hit before you decide to defend yourself? I bet if one of the victims had killed one of the miscreants, the video alone would have exonerated them.
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Re: Victim in Pasco hate crime had gun, decided not to use i

Postby Kythas » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:55 pm

Dragonfighter wrote:If you're not familiar with the case I cited, there were teenagers in the Plano area (IIRC) that were rolling around at night in their car. They would see a jogger or somebody walking home and pull up next to them at night, open fire while recording the action. Having seen the videos it was a significant "pop", "pop", "pop" and the victims doubling over in pain. So let me ask, if with your experience, a car load of teenagers pull up next to you at night stick the barrel of a weapon out the window and open fire at you. Are you going to wait and see if you survive the hits (and yes I have been hit with paint balls in and out of padding, and have had significant bruising with padding) or even wait to get hit before you decide to defend yourself? I bet if one of the victims had killed one of the miscreants, the video alone would have exonerated them.


This would probably come under the heading of "criminal mischief (in the night time)" and deadly force is justified in that circumstance.

In the case of the guy with the pellet gun, I would also have fired. The guy shot him 20 times with the pellet gun? Yeah, I'd consider that a threat to my life.
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