Question for experienced CHL holders

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Re: Question for experienced CHL holders

Postby punkndisorderly » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:39 pm

As a bystander, what you think the situation is, and what the situation actually is may be two totally different things.

Even when things seem clear cut, you are only privy to what you actually witness.

Always know that two things are always true:
-you will have to live with what you do or fail to do
-once a gun comes into play, everything you do will be second guessed by people who weren't there, some of whom have an axe to grind
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Re: Question for experienced CHL holders

Postby E.Marquez » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:27 pm

mojo84 wrote:
Based on the video, what makes you think the lady that came upon the scene actually saw the purse snatching? Looks to me like she came upon a woman laying in the parking lot. She could have just passed out or had a heart acttack. In those cases, why would you pull a gun and consider shooting someone?

It may different if you are speaking as if you were right there and saw the whole thing happen but it does not appear there was anyone there in that position.

I didn't see anything that makes me think drawing a gun would be justified. IF I would have seen the purse snatchin as it happened, I cannot say definitely what I would have done for sure but I do know, I hope I would have rendered aid and tried to get as much info as possible while pulling the lady out of the way of the vehicle.


:tiphat: my responses in this thread were based on the. Original posted question.


NTEXChallengerCHL wrote:I'm curious if anyone would have pulled their weapon for this scenario had they been present.


So based on me being present and observing what was presented in the video ( not guessing what the 1st responder saw) I responded...

I see a lady knocked down, suspect runs to the car, I run to the Vic, I see the suspect in the car start it up......yes that is a defensive situation that may require deadly force to stop the threat.

If others want to respond to the OP from a different perspective ( 1st responder saw nothing but lady on the ground) then of course a different response is just as valid as a proposed a suggested course of action. :thumbs2:
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Re: Question for experienced CHL holders

Postby jmra » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:30 am

When you say "if I were present" what exactly do you mean? if you mean that I was the person pushing the cart then my answer would be no. I do not believe this person had a clue what was happening until she saw the suspects tail lights. If you mean I was close enough to see everything that happened, then IMHO I would have seen nothing because the attack never would have happened.
Look at the video again. At the time of the attack there is no one else in view of the camera. The woman was targeted because she was old and alone. If an able bodied person had been close enough to see the entire event and assist, the suspect would have simply walked right past the lady and gone on to look for another target.

I don't believe this was a first for this suspect and it won't be the last.
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Re: Question for experienced CHL holders

Postby Jumping Frog » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:42 am

This is one of those cases where one needs to weight the difference between what is legal versus what is prudent.

Legally, if you were close enough to know it was a robbery, there is no doubt that using deadly force "is presumed to be reasonable".

Every CHL needs to memorize: "aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.", as they have a critical impact in use of force laws in Texas. See PC §9.32, for example.

As far as prudence is concerned, that is 100% situation dependent. Some people are willing to risk their life to come to the aid of another. Some people are not. There are people who would conclude risking everything that attaches to having a bullet leave your gun is not worth recovering someone else's purse, while other people are quite willing.

Once the legal base is covered, then all the judgement issues are entirely personal, varying with the situation and a person's values. I am not going to criticize people who engage nor am I going to criticize people who choose not to.
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Re: Question for experienced CHL holders

Postby RoyGBiv » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:08 am

Jumping Frog wrote:Every CHL needs to memorize: "aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.", as they have a critical impact in use of force laws in Texas.


In case you were wondering....

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.20.htm

Sec. 20.03. KIDNAPPING. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly abducts another person.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the abduction was not coupled with intent to use or to threaten to use deadly force;
(2) the actor was a relative of the person abducted; and
(3) the actor's sole intent was to assume lawful control of the victim.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree.

......vs......

Sec. 20.04. Aggravated Kidnapping.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly abducts another person with the intent to:
(1) hold him for ransom or reward;
(2) use him as a shield or hostage;
(3) facilitate the commission of a felony or the flight after the attempt or commission of a felony;
(4) inflict bodily injury on him or violate or abuse him sexually;
(5) terrorize him or a third person; or
(6) interfere with the performance of any governmental or political function.
(b) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly abducts another person and uses or exhibits a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense.
(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), an offense under this section is a felony of the first degree.
(d) At the punishment stage of a trial, the defendant may raise the issue as to whether he voluntarily released the victim in a safe place. If the defendant proves the issue in the affirmative by a preponderance of the evidence, the offense is a felony of the second degree.

and....

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.29.htm

Sec. 29.02. ROBBERY. (a) A person commits an offense if, in the course of committing theft as defined in Chapter 31 and with intent to obtain or maintain control of the property, he:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another; or
(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens or places another in fear of imminent bodily injury or death.
(b) An offense under this section is a felony of the second degree.

..............vs............

Sec. 29.03. AGGRAVATED ROBBERY. (a) A person commits an offense if he commits robbery as defined in Section 29.02, and he:
(1) causes serious bodily injury to another;
(2) uses or exhibits a deadly weapon; or
(3) causes bodily injury to another person or threatens or places another person in fear of imminent bodily injury or death, if the other person is:
(A) 65 years of age or older; or
(B) a disabled person.
(b) An offense under this section is a felony of the first degree.
(c) In this section, "disabled person" means an individual with a mental, physical, or developmental disability who is substantially unable to protect himself from harm.


Since "Sexual Assault" and "Aggravated Sexual Assault"
1. Differ in similar ways as compared to Robbery and Aggravated Robbery (eg: Actual or Threat of bodily injury, etc.) and
2. Language to describe this topic is not clearly within forum rules,

I'll post only the link to TX PC Chapter 22 and if you are over 18 you can read them yourself.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.22.htm
PC 22.011 - SEXUAL ASSAULT
PC 22.021 - AGGRAVATED SEXUAL ASSAULT
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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Re: Question for experienced CHL holders

Postby jayinsat » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:30 am

MoJo wrote:There was no reason to pull a gun in this whole clip. Be a good witness and help the victim.

IT'S NO A CLIP! It's a magazine!!!!! Oh wait, sorry. It's become a habit lately. :biggrinjester:
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